Transcript for Flightless Bird: Chutes and Ladders

I'm David Farrier in New Zealand to accidentally marooned in America and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now a few weeks ago I was watching some stand-up comedy and somehow the comedian got to talking about board games and then they mentioned a game called shoots and ladders. If you're an American this thing you're going, yeah shoots and ladders that game we played as kids. But if you're from New Zealand or a bunch of other countries you're going what the heck is shoots and ladders? Because in New Zealand, we call it snakes and letters. I couldn't concentrate on the comedy routine anymore because all I could think about was Americans insisting on calling snakes and letters by the totally bonkers name, shoots and letters. And so on today's fight this bird, I attempt to find out more about the name of the American board game, which takes me down a rabbit hole of board game craziness I never knew existed. So, get ready to roll that die and vanquish your opponents, because this is the shoots and letters episode.

Doesn't get more exciting than this.

You're a board game gal.

Yes, so as I made this episode different companies, they saw their payday that finally we're going to get famous. We're going to be on flight this bird and they started sending board games. You've got monopoly here. No monopoly knockouts.

There's all sorts. These are all free.

I reached out. I was trying to get to the bottom of this mystery. The shoots and letters thing through me. I was like, what are you talking about? You're having a stroke on stage. It snakes and letters because you hit the snake, the snake bites you, slide down the snake and then you climb up the ladder. A shoot that's so lame. What the hell? Boring. I want to get bitten by a snake.

I shouldn't have met one of your big fears.

Yeah, I let we get into this in the dock around why this is this huge branding difference because it is a huge branding difference. I was never aware of. I thought board games were just universally all the same thing, but they're clearly not.

There's so many things for your friend. What did you grow up playing? And are you a cheetah?

No. Okay. Oh wow.

You're lighting up Monica. It's just a game.

But I said to Roswell when I cracked the egg on a head. I was like, Roswell, take a joke. It's just an egg and she was like, ah, don't do that.

It is one of the most irritating things you can hear as bad.

Did you play uno?

Yeah, I don't know. This is a slight, as actually it's a tiny tiny spoiler for the jinx. There's a great scene where Robert Durus is on the stand. He's sort of regaling with all his childhood stories about his parents and his relationship and he's got this great story about how they're playing Uno together. And then the prosecutor comes into to us cross and he's like, are you telling me that happened in like 72? And Durus just like, yeah, and he's like, Uno wasn't even invented in 72. It's like, oh, it's this big money. That's really good. It's such a lie when you're lying in a murder. Just be careful what board games or card games are talking about.

No, I'm honest. It's my Christian upbringing. It made me, it was forced onto me these morals. And now I'm so guilt-ridden if I cheat. Okay, I see that. I see that. But when people do things I roll the die and instead of going like 1, 2, 3, though, count, sometimes on their spaces one and sometimes the next spaces one, because they're counting out where they want to land. No, that shit lines me up.

Very famous. Yes, fairer.

Yeah, no, we get into this a bit as well. And I would just say I can't do them. My brain won't allow me to learn the rules for complicated board games.

Yeah, I think you're right, Katana, I think is one that I could play, but whenever someone has set down, if someone's not explaining rules to me, it's not because I don't want to play, it's just my brain, it is overwhelmed, and I'm just like, I don't know, I don't understand, and I just freak out, and I shut down.

Internally, yeah, I kind of do it's bad.

What's the context of where you would play MoC? Was it with your family growing up? Do you occasionally bring out a board game even now? Or is this in your distant past?

I learned about Candy Land for the first time.

Is that teach you about, like, morals and stuff? Is that what it is?

You have a family, you've got a little car. Yeah, and that it is like you're living your life as an American.

Rob, you have children, do you play board games with him?

Yeah. Any cheetahs and your family?

Yeah, right. Mark the series.

Oh, my God. So intense. Okay. I'm going to take this seriously. All right. This is what I found out. Hearing all that talk of shoots and ladders at the comedy show set me into a spin. Afterwards, I sat down at home in front of my laptop and googled it immediately. Just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind.

A bunch of American ads from the 80s proved I hadn't been hearing things. And I realized I'd crossed into the upside down of the United States where board games have different names. I needed answers and I needed them quick. So I decided to talk to one man I knew could explain things. A top dog of board games.

Most importantly, Hasbro is the company responsible for shoots and lettuce. The company's story starts back in 1923 when three Polish Jewish brothers, Herman Henry and Halel founded the Hessen Fuel Brothers on Rhode Island. And by the time World War II came around in 1942, Halal had left, and Henry was in charge, pivoting the company into toys. Specifically, Dr. Ernest Toy's for kids, possibly something to do with World War II going on. As the Second World War aged on, the company helped both rescue and employee Jews, and they kept growing, getting their first giant head in 1952, with Mr. Potato Head. In the 60s, G.A. Joe became their big thing. Today, Hesbro's Toy Empire is vast, G.I. Joe, Power Rangers, Furabies, Nerf Guns, Twister, My Little Pony, Pepper Pig, and of course they do board games, so so many board games, which is where Senior Vice President of board games Brian Baker comes in.

What was the most surprising thing for you? Was there something sort of unexpected when it came to board games and you were a role there?

That's the case with so many products. Mr. Potato Head, who I mentioned earlier, is not like Hasbro invented him. They just brought the rights from an American inventor called George Lerner. That deal almost didn't happen because George had just sold Mr. Potato Head to a serial company for $5,000. Luckily for George, when Hasbro made their better offer, he bought the rights back for $7,000, then sold it on to Hasbro. This brings us back to shoots and led its, whose story goes back way further than Mr. Potatohead.

So apparently we have shoots and letters to think for back to square one. But there still doesn't explain why it's called shoots and letters. When the rest of the world calls it the original snakes and letters.

I wondered what other games are called different things here and it turns out loads of them. Like in New Zealand we have a game called Cludo and apparently here in America it's just clue.

So Ludo led to Pluto, sorry, clue, and to another has for a game called Sorry. Are there any games that have taken off in America that haven't taken off for it's been a struggle to get them taking off another territory? A little vice versa. Things that have popped off elsewhere that America just doesn't get.

I feel like we'll probably eventually see the origin story of Candy Land turned into some kind of inspiring Netflix show, they can deal with pop-tarts, they can do it with Candy Land. It's so strange what translates and what doesn't, what's deemed fit for kids and what isn't. I mean, snakes are so scary, they apparently change them to boring old shoots, and in America is also responsible for the most terrifying, stressful game on Earth. Talking about the idea of snakes scaring American children, you look at a game like Operation, which is always fascinated me so much. It's terrifying, you know, you're literally pulling out organs and trying not to make this patient enjoy any kind of pain.

Who's diabolical idea was that? Was that some drunken ployy like tick seeing you at one am in the morning? How did you get to that idea?

What does make a good game because, you know, you've got to have obviously the idea that in the mechanics need to be so well balanced.

I started to wonder how American board games are, and it turns out they're pretty American. Brian says the US represents about half of their business. He says outside of the US, Germany is really the heart of board game culture. He says he has a lot of respect for the types of games Germany produces. But when it comes to America, there's one game, and one game alone that's truly American. That speaks to the heart of American culture. The taps into the lifeblood of the USA. capitalism. When you think quintessential American game, what springs to mind for you?

Back in New Zealand, you have streets like Queen Street and Lampton Key. Sitting next to me as I type this, I have Jurassic Park Monopoly, where streets have been replaced with dinosaur names. And maybe that's the magic. Why Monopoly's endured. It's just endlessly adaptable to where people live or what they're interested in. I mean, there's even a ding ding ding ding, Costco Monopoly. It helps explain why Monopoly turns 90 next year. Chances are, Monopoly will outlive all of us. What is it about Monopoly that's had that cut through? Because it's also a game that people rage over and get into family fights over as well. What's kept it so popular?

I also feel it's a game where like, I don't know how to be completely wrong on this, but I feel like people cheekily cheat on monopoly more than other board games.

I feel it does have the association, right? I can feel I've never had a monopoly game with someone hasn't at some point tried something on. And maybe this is just my friends. You mean by cheating? Try cheating. Yeah. I feel like it just never doesn't happen. Monopoly is almost your always. He's got money flying around, different things on the board. Go to jail, get out of jail. For how many times you're going around the board, if we can get out of jail, No. He will take advantage.

Just give it a go. No. It's like a new gameplay technique.

Yeah, you feel riddled with it. Yeah. It's not real.

Yeah. So it doesn't feel as good. I don't think you're a victory. Do you do escape rooms? Love. So if you're in a scape room, if someone hits the clue button, do you get really annoyed? You know, sometimes in those rooms, you can be a clue because that's kind of like cheating. And I've got a friend that says if you hit any of those buttons, cannot be proud of anything you've achieved in there, because you haven't actually figured it out.

I've got a friend that will just get so frustrated, though, hit it without any permission. Oh, a clue was suddenly broadcast in the room.

Oh, incredible.

Oh, that was the pre-spades game.

What was creating these?

Would it start slow and escalate? Or was it one big event and you were just flying to a rage and kind of pounce?

Allegedly.

Yeah, but this genuinely became because there is a thing where there's a play fight and then you reach in me and my friend Dan Dan will reach a point not necessarily the board games. You'll do something and I was fucking hate him. I want to smash his head and and I'm like how did it jump from this fun we're having to proper caveman rage

Yeah, and you're remembering these other things that have happened in your actual life. Yeah, and I'm like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like,

Oh, that's a good point. It's can get irritating at times. If you're having like a good flow and someone is just coming in there and guy, man, man, man. That is annoying.

Someone tries to get something over someone else. So now you're going to be extra aggressive on rules. Exactly. And there's always a tragic moment in any game where someone goes for like the rules, they get them out and start reading the final line, they know that's when shit's going wrong.

What I think I think Monopoly is obviously so well-known and the branding's great and then games took a bit. I also think what makes people fight over it, I would argue and I've got nothing to base us on. But I think probably some of the mechanics are quite bad, and that's what makes people fine, because suddenly it does swing out of control in a really ridiculous way, that actually makes the game bad for so many people. Like if you're someone balanced. It's a flawed game, and I think that's why it has succeeded, because it comes attached with all this rage and emotion. And there's no bit of feeling when you are blitzing everyone else. So when you get those two key properties, you've got all your houses and you upgrade them to hotels. And you're just a annihilating people of different age. You know, your parents, you can take your parents down.

I also really like that so many of these had their origins in India. That's kind of amazing.

Yeah. I mean, you are responsible for shoots and that is. I am. Which also makes and that is.

Yes, snakes and that is how it is. It's a great game. It's a calming game.

I think seeing that little happy human face shining out of you. It was really stressful and that buzzer noise. Yeah. Oh my god, it's so so stressful.

Alright. So the next part of this little doc I dived into some of the more complicated games.

Brian was listing off the things he had done and I'm just like you have this incredible career. Just casually designing shoes at Nike and obviously like a big design brain.

Yeah, yeah, he was good as well. Because a lot of these episodes I do reach out. I try and get the top dogs. Most of them they're like, ah, we don't need to do that. We're already successful. We don't need to be on a podcast.

And he knew his stuff. I wasn't expecting to learn all these things about the origins of these games. Like why we call Cludo. Yeah. Just kind of crazy. He was great.

Stay tuned for more flight whispered. We'll be right back after a word from Mal sponsors. This episode of Flat This Bird is brought to you by Booking.com, Booking.com. Yeah. It's finally time for summer travel and I am pumped because I like traveling. I like traveling for myself and I like traveling for this show.

We sure favor a place to travel to in America that's not going home like, where would you? New York.

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That's really hard to do.

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I figured at this point, I should probably go and talk to some people who are really into board games, who do game nights. Luckily, for me, a flightless bird listener called Marissa had reached out, saying that her and her friends were doing a game night, so I joined them. Five friends in a cast in their apartment, bonding over a board game. How did you all meet each other?

Well, college.

Tonight isn't about Kribbich, and they're playing something new. What's this game? Good playing?

It's beautiful.

The artwork on the board in front of them is really beautiful. Clearly a lot of efforts been made to make this game look good.

As he spoke, my mind starts to drift. And I'm reminded of a time that I tried to play a game like this. Back in New Zealand, my friend Eddie was carefully trying to explain the rules to me, but none of them were going in. As time went by, I grew frustrated. Then I just got angry. You're very good at explaining by the way.

It's hard to explain if you haven't tried to play a more complicated board game, but I think there are two kinds of people in this world. Those that love having rules explain to them and those that are almost immune to hearing them. We can't comprehend them in one ear and out the other. Jason understands my pain.

I mean, I am incapable of taking on rules. I'm trying right now and it's just, I'm one of those people that it just really doesn't go in.

I wasn't convinced. Give me monopoly any day of the week.

Look, I won't take you through all of our night. Let's just say the rules went on for a long, long time as did the game. Everyone there was loving it. I was just trying to understand it and I was struggling.

I actually left Marissa and her friends before that finished. It was a long game, as I said. She emailed me the next day, telling me that Jason, the guy who also struggled listening to all those rules, had won. He was the newest addition to the group, and he'd won. Maybe there is hope for me in the board game world. But despite not being a board game guy, I've come to appreciate that behind all of these board games is a story. Might that shoots and ladders didn't start as shoots and ladders. It was always snakes and ladders until America came along. Even Monopoly has a weird story. And that it didn't start life is this sort of owed to capitalism. It can be traced back to the early 1900s when a woman called Lizzy Mejji created a game that was meant to educate American kids about how bad it was to concentrate land and private monopolies. Monopoly started as being anti-monopoly. And the stories behind all these games, that's what Brian from Hezbroo appreciates as well.

Pretty cool, right?

What I want to do, I want to do a documentary where there's a famous American surgeon and he's so good at surgery. And then you're like, how did you get so good? And it was just as a kid. He was just playing so much operation. Oh. And he was so good at operation. Yeah. And that's it. And then, and that's seen into the movie role credits.

No, you're playing the game. And I guess if a game's good, you're not thinking about it because you're just like, this is amazing. You don't even think about the design of it, but someone's put so much effort in to nail it down.

I love this.

What do you remember the theme or what I remember the theme?

Yeah, you're moving around to board.

Notice we never had that at my school.

Yeah, I see you did actually. You're Brian talked a bit about some of the adult board games that they do because it is a whole other genre of games. And I think one of them is based on that Fakmeri kill game.

Yeah, based around that concept. But also like that's an example of something the rules for a game can be so basic and you can be so fun. Yeah, like that. Fat American game is so fun to play.

Salmon. Oh, okay. Salmon. I see. Salmon. Shrimp.

I'm marrying the salmon. Okay. Fucking the crab.

I think so. There's too many moving little crackly bits. I'm worried about, I don't like it.

Yeah, you want to dominate me.

What's the next board game you're going to play? You too. Can you imagine it? You're going to be playing operation with your son.

And people do. I'll be there.

Same thing.

We need to come up with a game and make millions of dollars out of it.

No. I don't do Sudoku. I don't do Crosswords. My brain isn't wired for it. I'm not good at pub quizzes.

Maybe it's just like an internal thing where I'm just too freaked out by it now.

Okay. What one should I start with? Connections. Connections? It's so fun.

I'm going to give you this game Monaco because I know you mean you like the Catani kinds of lives and as well as apparently life in Ratera. Life in the community rebuilding game apparently is really good.

And this is a naughty adult game, which I'm going to give to you, Rob. It's called, and this is a one that was based on, in fact, America that's called, Fork Milk Kid App.

I'm already getting intimidated by what this means. Okay, so we've got four stacks of cards in this Fork Milk Kid App game. They marked A, B, and C. I'm already feeling anxious at figuring out what I'm meant to do with these. Okay, there's action cards and there's object cards. Give each player a set of letter cards and A, B, and a C. Okay, so we're all going to set of cards, A, B, and C. And also, okay, so each get a number one, two, three.

Okay, grab a stack of action cards, black, shuffle them, and place the dick. No, I can't shuffle. And place the dick, face down to the one to see my brain is already doing its thing.

I'm okay.

Grab a stack of action cards back shuffle them and place the dick face down to the left of the number cards. Grab a stack of object cards. Those are the blue ones. shuffle them. Thank you Rob. And place the dick face down to the right of the lyric cards. Okay, we need a round keeper. The roundkeeper has to flip over three action cards on to the number cards in the middle. All right, so we've got some actions now.

Oh, he's losing it already. Okay, now we're going to flip the object cards over onto the letters and so A is Lizzo B that bitch who can pull off low-rise jeans and see the whole damn Brady bunch Very American.

Okay. Now three, starting with the roundkeeper, I think can be wrong.

I also feel like my position has been hotly validated of how scary rules can be. And intimidate it.

I'll pull the plug on the whole damn Brady Bunch, because I don't really care anything about them, because then grow up with them. I'm gonna lubricate that bitch.

Yeah, and I'm gonna braid the pubes of the same.

Yeah, so... I don't think there's any ethical and moral choices.

Thank you, just let's remember that there's a great origin story for every game that you play and you're going to enjoy playing board games.

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