Transcript for Orna Guralnik (Couples Therapy)

Welcome welcome welcome to armchair expert experts on expert. I'm Dan Rather. I'm joined by modest mouse.

Some people in the comments sense the Easter egg, which I didn't mind at all because they were as excited as we were about us. Our very favorite therapist, a from our favorite show, which is called Couples Therapy, our doctor and residents on Couples Therapy, orna Guroan.

Orna, oh my god, what a thrill this was.

I want her advice. Me too. Yeah.

Yeah, a little bit happens. Right at the gates, I think. Okay, Orna is a clinical psychologist and a psychoanalysis. She is on the faculty NYU postdoctoral institute for psychoanalysis and at the national institute for the psychotherapies. Season four premieres tomorrow on Paramount Plus with Showtime. Couples therapy season four. We've seen it. It's spectacular. So please enjoy Orna Grolnik. We are supported by Taco Bell.

Yes, something fresh, something high quality, something like the all new cantina chicken menu from Taco Bell, which is exactly that.

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She's a wolf and fox clothing. She's actually a human in a wolf's clothing. Hi. Hi. Hi. I'm Danx. Nice to meet you. We're so excited. I brought a fame.

Her face is so youthful. Oh, another one is here! Mikos here! Oh my god, that was so gross!

Was that dog named Mikos?

It's only once in a while we have someone that is in something we consume. You know, pathologically, yeah, yeah. Because there's only so many shows. So it's like, once in a while, someone from our very favorite show comes and it's extra exciting.

Love you. How many hours are your days? It was fine. That's fine.

Oh my goodness. Involving the people on the side one?

I hit her with the Serendi prayer for me. This is my ball to the category of things I can achieve.

You're getting to do something you don't actually do on the show, which is like you run right at it. So all of a sudden eight minutes. No, no, no.

There's a lot of team Monica and there's a lot of people going you know saying what that I should run in the street No, more what I brought up, which is like, if you look at it from a utilitarian point of view, it's like, you know what, you're one person. There are 10 people communing. This is just measureably more effort.

For 10 people to adjust what they're doing versus the one person.

of a ever evolving crisis here.

This should cue you into our level of privilege that this is the enormous issue in our combined life. It's symbolic enormously. She is a minority. This is the majority.

And specifically from Georgia, so from the south, I think that group does represent something a little bit.

There's also an interesting dynamic that you live in New York and we live in LA, which has its own cultures about moving about.

Right, you try to run everyone down. You have this illusion of anonymity in it. And so behave in a way you would never on the sidewalk. That's fascinating.

Yes. And it's incredibly democratizing. Even if you're a billionaire, you have to walk on that same sidewalk.

There's also the randomly seven 800 bags of trash, like it's trash day, and now there's a mountain of trash in the evening. Yeah. I'm not being disparaging. It's just a reality, the logistics of the city.

No. You're probably not out late enough. Now I know something about you. I'm at early. First of all, I want to ask a quick question about headphones. I'm just curious. You don't have to wear them or you can wear them. Great. I was curious because it would not feel nice. And you're like, I don't want that feeling.

I could tell you, from my point of view, it eliminates and reduces the stimuli to just your voice and monocos. So it's a very kind of focusing auditory experience for me, which a lot of people don't need.

Right. It kind of makes you self conscious of what you're hearing or overly aware of it.

I like it. Okay, so when did you move to New York?

From Israel?

And I wanted to actually start with more of an umbrella question. There's obviously numerous reasons why a therapist keeps their private life private. I mean, you could list them, but there's quite obvious ones. There's like that's a pretty important place for boundaries.

Yeah. My assumption of why that wall should exist to some degree. I think that knowing a lot about you distracts the person to some degree and probably you are unavoidably drawn to make comparison. Like if you have children and I have children and I'm dealing with something like I'm gonna start using a lot of shortcuts like you now and you understand I'm gonna be incorporating you a lot more than probably is fruitful. Is that some of it?

Yeah, I would imagine too. I could easily hear some details and now ascribe an archetype to you, that is already triggering to me or resemble some parent or some teacher or whatever the thing is.

So given that, do you have certain reservations and misgivings about doing press and letting people get to know you and doing interviews?

Okay, it would be impossible that you're not experiencing a lot of the things. And actor experiences when they become known. And the people in their life, it's a very triggering experience because the first knee jerk fear is like, well, I won't be as important as this new status or they're going to a status that I will get left behind. So that's the story. So then the confirmation bias kind of takes over and they look for only signs that that's happening. And I think it can dramatically. So yeah, I would imagine Some patients of yours are probably like, what am I? She's now on TV and she's everywhere.

So if you figured out an incredible technique to mitigate that because I could sure benefit from that.

Yeah, that's your real identity.

You're right, because it has a power that's very hard to observe.

Well, let me be honest about that.

Yeah. Given that, are you comfortable telling me about where you're from and all that? Yeah. Okay, good. Seven years. I'm asking. Yeah, because I guess let me even be more transparent. We interview people. Robert Sapolsky. We interview.

Okay, he's incredible. Eric Lander, head of Broad Institute at MIT. People who study things that are really, really complex and they have this enormous brain that they bring to bear on it. And then when I also think is kind of interesting, there's very few of them. I think they take for granted the thing that interested them was innately interesting. And they're not really curious so much about why that was a comforting pursuit. So I'm most always interested when I talk to people of like how we think we ended up here and why that looked like a comfortable

Okay, so I'm wondering I would be guessing but moving a lot all those dynamics and being in group out group and how are people thinking and being very incentivized to understand how people think was that happening?

Do you find that you would code switch? We may be call it code switching. And then you even get curious, do I even know? Could it get a little fragmented in a way?

Yeah, do you figure it out? Are you used to get comfortable? You always come all these things and that's just fine.

You're right, it's really fascinating for ease of generic title. You're the boss in the room. Like you sit in the seat and then you go sit in the other seat and it's like, oh, it's a circle. So then this is more egalitarian. And then yes, there's this kind of advisor role. And we get to, yes, see you take on these different layers in the hierarchy, which is fun. Now, you got your PhD in the 90s. There were options on the table at that time, right? See, we tease already in approach. And a lot of these things are approaches. So why specifically psychoanalysis? And I think it would be helpful for you to explain to us.

And maybe the evolution from Freud, psychoanalyzing, till now.

In your, yeah, yeah, and an article you wrote that I read, you gave us a really concise layout of that.

Yeah, tell me what your journey, because you're taking it intro to psych at some point.

That's what your article I read was about.

Yeah, about the impact of BLM and me too materializing in these relationships. So I think people understand this intuitively. We talked about it just now when Monica sees this group on the street and they're all the hegemonic group. That means many things. It means the immediate thing, which is it's an obstacle. And then it means potentially other things from the subconscious.

But I know her so well.

Yeah, if you don't want to give me a sign right there at least to think about it at least to be one of the dimensions I can give a personal anecdote which is just generally I get along so well with our nine-year-old we have a very nice symbiotic flow boy girl both girls in the nine-year-olds very much like my wife so I have a lot of practice and then Similarly, the 11-year-old's like me and she does very well with her. So we rarely have a thing and we're laying a bed and we're debating whether this math problem we did the day before the answer was this or that. And I said, no, it was this. And she said, no, it was not. It was this. You said that. That's what it was. She said, no, you said the answer was this and I said, well, no, I wouldn't ever said that because this times this is that. So I would have said that. And now we're getting into the weeds and we are now arguing about what I said and what I didn't say. And it's uncharacteristic and I go to bed that night and I'm like, that was out of the blue. And then the next day I said to her, honey, I'm so sorry. You stumbled into my primal fear of being dyslexic and stupid. And so it's so important to me that you know I'm smart and I got that right and I was just emotionally so active they did buy that but it's from when I was your age and I'm so sorry and it doesn't matter what I said and probably you're right or whatever, but that's what was happening. So it's like yes, she and I are having on the surfaces were debating whether I said this or that, but actually something quite profound is happening for you. Yes, and the stakes are high. If there's anyone I want to appear to be smart in front of, it's my children. So that would be my subconscious, right? Yes. Does it frustrate you? I get a little frustrated because we do interview people that practice many different approaches to this. Are you annoyed by the techniques being pitted against each other? Because I feel like what are we talking about? There's like, is a jaw great or is lifting weight great? Or is Pilates great? All these things are probably beneficial health wise.

Like they want results and they want a timeline.

I guess I'm suggesting it's all a false dichotomy, which is you could be doing that work and you could also assemble a tool kit for these acute periods where that's appropriate. That's the tool to pull out at that moment.

It's just funny to see tribalism percolate up in something so like, right.

Now, take us from Freud's kind of primary concept with the subconscious and then where we're at now.

Yeah, and dangerous.

I mean, uniquely here, but maybe not uniquely.

Is this the birth of attachment theory?

Blow right through that.

I would like you to tell me what systems thinking is because I know that's a big aspect of this.

Well, I was going to suggest as an example that people I think experience most strongly is that they go out into their adult life and they kind of gravitate toward a system that they wanted. And then they return home for the holidays and you can feel yourself clicking to the role you were described in that situation and you're like, no, no, no, no. I don't want this role anymore. I feel like that's when people are really aware of it.

We are supported by better help. Listen, I understand that sometimes you want to keep things to yourself. Process your emotions in your own time. But if you keep everything bottled up, it can have some serious consequences.

I had therapy this morning. Yeah, you did. Yeah, and I put me in the greatest mood. We had a long big day, and I just felt much better for him.

I was. I was. I was to be.

Yeah, I was locked out of my therapy setting, which is this attic.

I felt much better, and I even made some apologies. Talking things out can be so helpful. And if you want a safe space for that conversation, I recommend therapy. Check out better help if you've been thinking of trying therapy. It's entirely online, convenient, and flexible. It's also easy to get started. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist. You can even switch therapists at any time for any reason for no additional charge. Get it off your chest with better help. Visit betterhelp.com slash DAX today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help HELP.com slash DAX. We are supported by Wayfair. It's exciting when you get your own place or even just a new space because you get to decorate it however you want. I think we forget that decorating our homes can be a form of self-expression.

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Oh, boy. I kind of need to peruse there to stalk the downstairs.

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Not leave it in drive when you get out. That one's not going to work.

Well, and it's dangerous actually if they expose how out of step they are with what everyone else knows.

They're exposing their otherness.

You're so wonderfully different though, by the way. I know, I know, I know logically.

He's quite successful.

He's got what? He's got a great role in the system. You don't have to deal with any of the shit and he's just hanging.

And systems, trying to evaluate. I think what's interesting, we've had a systems expert. Talking about systems in general, they're very interesting. They are perfectly designed to produce the outcome you're observing. You have to almost work backwards with systems, right? It's like, no, no, this is the outcome they produce. To think that this system will produce a different outcome. We already know what the system produces. Yes. You have done a lot of work on disassociation. Maybe we could dig in a little bit of what that means for people. I think they're very common.

The one I'm not familiar with that seems like a sister state is the personalization. I don't know what that is.

That was in quotes.

They don't have it to someone else because to take that on would be too much.

And this one is so extreme that there's almost a lack of awareness that the other states exist, right?

Well, this season, we have someone that's approaching that.

And to the degree where he doesn't remember the argument he's having with his partner.

He's droolably actually making much more pain for himself.

Okay, that's what I relate to.

Yeah, having gone through experiences where I go like, okay, we're gonna not pay attention. This is gonna exist. I can observe it, but I'm gonna be over here. distracting myself with my own thoughts and fantasies. And this will end at some point and then I'll rejoin. Yeah. Yeah, I've had a lot of those experiences.

So I really relate to that one. I guess I would have thought that was dissociation.

I can't feel the things that are happening to my body, which I know are happening.

And it works. I have done it in the past when it wasn't necessary.

I was molested. So that was an experience. As a kid. Yeah, as a kid, there was a lot of violence. That dad's in the mix, addiction, galore, I'm an addict. I've done weird shit. I think it was a very useful tool. As I was walking into a crackhouse in downtown Detroit at foreign the morning going, well, this is dangerous for him.

Yes, I am, and I will have the thing I want at some point here in the near future, and then I'll rejoin him.

Specifically, is that the same?

Specific example would be like when I was a thief when I was an addict. Oh, we were at his person's house. That person was nice. And then I noticed they had extra eggs. And then I stole from them. And I go, we don't do this. Right. And so there's a disconnect while that dirty business happens. So I'm trying to artfully hit pause on the experience. So I don't have to take on the reality of my behavior.

I want to hear Mark that case, because it actually got kind of personal to you. And we saw maybe one of your bad word for it, but I'll kill you. Yes. Because of course, as a show, you're the hero of our story. So it's interesting to have a preensaceable desire to know about you. And there's not a lot of info for us.

There isn't there isn't. I don't know your history. I don't know about your children. I learn your from Israel or we've spent time, you know, little nuggets here and there, but a lead character normally would have had kind of an introduction where we get the backstory and then we take a journey with them. So it's part of the fun of watching it is you yourself is the lead character of a story we watch is a mystery to us, which is Very go ahead.

I was really unspecific in what I was talking about. There's the reality of what's happening that happens to get captured. And there you're right. You're not the hero of that. Yeah. Then there's a documentary series. That's another thing.

As you should be, I'm almost letting you into the perspective of the viewer. That would be hard for you to probably touch, which is I turn on my television. There's a program presented to me. The couple's change. One person stays consistent. The blueprint of my brain for story is that's my lead character. That's my hero. Now, that's not the reality of what's happening in the room at all. I'm not suggesting that.

This is great. This is uncomfortable, right?

If I had used the word guidance that a hero would that be less?

That probably feels like you're dishonoring, you're really dishonoring what's happening.

And you are, and I would feel that exact same way. Yeah. I would think. No, no, no, no. Don't suggest.

I'm talking about this vague concept of story. I'm acutely aware of story and the power of story and what we do in the format we Somehow innately, a quiet artist we're born with, right?

It's how we're computing this reality world. Yeah. See, multiple things are happening at once. It's really what it is. It's like you're having your real life experience. The couples are having their very real experience. And they are immediate story where we meet them. We know there's a problem. This is very archetypal. We're going to slay the dragon. Yeah. But unfortunately, you're the dragon slayer a little bit at Matt. Yes. I'm going to be interested in you. I want to know about you. I watch you and I'm very drawn to you. I appreciate what you do. And then of course, I want to know everything about you.

Yes, which by the way, I was so glad you labeled it that because I suffer from that as well. If I feel like there's someone to be protected, I'm there. So you have a touch of that, I guess.

Right. But I can't imagine it's universal among psychoanalysts.

I could see someone actually having just an innate desire to solve problems like that. Right. And in that case, it's maybe they don't even have that hero complex part of it.

Ah, interesting.

A little more mechanical. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

I said mechanical. You maybe I offended somebody. So we're almost to the show, which is You have a practice, you've had it for years. You also teach at NYU. Had you been aware of mating and captivity? Yes, of the book. And the podcast?

We've interviewed a couple times. I'd wore her to know him.

Where should we begin? Where should we begin?

Yeah. I heard that. I love it in the same way. I love couples therapy. In an weird way, I'm going to compare it to AA, which is this person has a very similar problem. I have, and I'm hearing them out loud talk about it. But I'm not getting defensive because it's not aimed at me. I have this little bit of arms link. to recognize and relate and hear solution that may or may not work. But it was no one pointing a finger at me and saying, right? So it doesn't trigger any of my defensiveness. Got it. I'm so much more open to hearing it when it's not personal to me. And I think listening to where should we begin had that power where it's like, wow, I'm getting to hear her say things to these people that if it were directed at me, I probably would get defensive, but I hear it because I'm not in the room. And it's a huge gift.

I think that's why the show is, we'll get to it. So, comforting. But I'm just curious, I have to imagine there were reservations and is this something that should be consumed by people or should this remain private?

Well, I would argue what happens in there often happens in this room, which is people have an awareness that this will ultimately land in millions of people's labs, but also they forget that regularly. And I forget that.

Yeah, yeah, it seems almost impossible, but then when you're experiencing it, you're like, oh, no, it's quite possible. But you originally were just coming on as an advisor. Is that accurate?

Oh, interesting. So it kind of started as an effort for you to protect.

And I'm required a lot of trust for me because I will say I give them an A plus on not being ever exploitative. They're amazing. Which is very, very hard to do. It's not an easy task. You could even set out with great intentions, but that doesn't mean it's not. It's so clean.

because I would guess, and I didn't even know this until I started researching you, but that you do do more than the couples we see. There are other couples that we don't follow them. Right. And I would imagine in that situation there were some that would be, quote, great for TB.

Alright, so now we're at the show and I have now a million questions. There's just a lot of things you exhibit that I really have a hard time believing someone's capable of it. So, okay, and we will not name names. We've had edit stuff out when we talk about the shit.

If we said something disparaging about... Well, I was specifically labeling somebody with a condition. I think that could be liable.

Yeah, a previous season, and that could obviously impact someone's employment and everything else. We can do this without making it specific to anyone. It starts with a question of Maybe do you even believe in certain labels? Because the thing I'm astounded by with you is I will often watch someone in the couple's dynamic, and I will say, oh, this person's clearly a narcissist. Okay, when someone's a narcissist, now there's a known pattern that we expect. I want that generally woman out of that situation, my protectiveness. You really seem to resist getting stuck on a label in assuming there's a predictable pattern that needs to be interrupted. How on earth do you do that? Do you believe in labels? Do you believe there are people that are X, Y, or Z?

Oh, if I were AI and I was a probabilistic predictor, yeah, I'm not in any of these situations, but you at all have to fight the inclination to diagnose.

Another way I might label what I think I observe is like you haven't kind of endless optimism in all.

Well, you have to. You have to. You can work backwards.

I'll go to. Do you have to go? No.

Okay, things were bearing with us. Well, it's our first time ever of all three of us having to go to the bathroom.

No. Well, there is, of course, when we see how observant you are, it'd be crazy to not assume that when we chat, you're probably going to see the reality of what we are.

Okay, so I understand the resisting the labels and it not even being useful, but I also think we are intuitively pattern recognition machine.

Useful and an Achilles or no?

It's not my place to say it, but that would be the couple this season, Rex and Joey. Yes.

but you have a bit of a playbook. Yes. You're minimally know what stuff will set them all.

Or on a ramp up. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. By the way, I imagine that's exactly what we keep your job kind of endlessly interesting is you're adjusting and reacting or not reacting. We like a better word for react. We don't want to react. We want to respond.

Yes. Good. Hahaha. I said, I know no words. So yeah, you want to respond accordingly, and I bet that it keeps it almost endlessly novel. Yeah. So yeah, two things are happening. Like, one is there is this pattern, and that's observable. But then there's all this novelty, inter mix.

You have taken me personally. Monica and I have talked about it. Monica is well. It's like you have with your endless optimism and hope that are people that I wrote off in many seasons and we get to episode eight. Yeah, they're a fucking suffering person like all over us and I'm so glad she was patient I wouldn't have been and now I'm here.

By the way, I bet that also parallels being a new therapist and being one that's been doing it for a while. Yes, at the beginning out of fear, I think I did drive a more linear line through all this. And then over time, when I was very confident, comfortable, something arose that was much greater than the thing I was aiming at. And then learning to trust that is its own skill set.

Should we trade jobs for a couple weeks? What's your job like? You're seeing it.

Just a whirlwind of really fun, interesting people cycle through. The one thing I, we're doing it right now. So my wife and I are watching season. Five or I feel like I'm already in on the answer to this and it's no, but do you have a belief that everyone can be a couple? Because often I go, I know why they're attracted to each other, but this is really a match made in hell. And I think they both be better off on each other. You know, do you enter it with a belief that everyone can make it if they do the work or are there times where you feel like you have to help them exit this peacefully?

And I'm not here to love me a verdict.

Well, we even talk about, like, this success rate for a range of marriages. Like, you have to take that on board, too. That's a reality.

And sounds like it's an incredibly low percentage. And that kind of makes sense because there's some self-filteration process that they would end up in front of you in the first place that you've definitely waited out some sector that's on some helmet collision course. They're not looking for help. Right. But on the occasions where it has happened, do you ever break the bond of the system? Do you do it in the room or have you had to sidebar a member of the couple and say, I'm worried about you and does that feel like a betrayal of the if that has happened?

Yeah, yeah. Sorry. We're dipping in an out.

Yeah, so you have this incredible optimism and understanding, and then also you have this very sexy set of boundaries and directness. Now, this is where I think there's a little bit of the Israeli in there.

When they're highly disagreeable group in our societal studies, easier for you to be direct like that.

Yeah, it's very very cool. I'm like really impressed the way you wrangle some tigers.

Well, we have a lot of sociologists on and we'll talk about these different indexes across culturally. And we all have these fun things in a fear of power, you know, Brazil's very high in their fear is around zero fear of power. America's close. So I think it's really fascinating these cultural differences.

Let's be honest, her.

Yeah. But at first, she was a lot.

Pull pot, you get a pass for these fucking people on the side.

She needed to trust you. Yes, I needed to build trust in the moment that was the salient knockout punch my wife was watching this and heard this in a way I've never heard you said and that's your anxiety

That was the moment I thought all that good will got you to the point where you could say, and that is your anxiety. And that's why you're suffering from it, because it's in you.

You really brought her there. It was really beautiful to watch. So I have different triggers. I don't necessarily watch it and think something's unjust. I also go to the person who is generically subservient in this. And then I'm more curious. Why does that? Please you. You have found yourself in this situation.

Yeah, because I'm like no one's a victim. No one woke up. Here's your partner. Fuck you deal with it. So we're all getting something out of this and trying to figure out why is this soon to me is interesting.

Yeah. Oh, okay. Let's talk about the trouble.

A poly what?

They're not. Great distinction, and I didn't mean to screw that up. Now, full disclosure, I was in an open relationship for nine years. It was lovely, but our rules was like, I... I want you to like me, so I'm just gonna say, we met cheating on people. I was 21, she was 20. I very much loved her. I said, I think if this is one of the requirements for you and I to make it long term, I'm afraid we're gonna break up over this and I don't want to. I would like to have a baby with you. I want to stay together and we demonstrate we're bad at this. What about that?

Let's call this what it is. And then many, many talks are arrangement was basically, I don't really care if something happens and I don't know about it. I have no desire to hear about it. And that was the thing. So that worked pretty darn good for us. There was evolutions over the course of nine years. All that to say, The police scenario seems so complicated because you have three relationships happening. You know, like the two individual relationships that are happening and then their collective relationship.

Yeah. And now I'm going to expose my old Fogi Puritanicalism. I have a hard time watching it going. Guys, this is not tenable. I know. I have a pessimism about how tenable that is. Again, it's almost impossible for two humans to go happen. It's so hard and it's not just it's twice as hard. It's a permutation math equation. It's actually like nine times harder. There's some math there. And so is that even been hard for you? Is that challenge your optimism? Are you seem to be very optimistic even about the polyandry life?

I fuck that up. It's probably like that. That just means women I think who have multiple partners, polyandry.

As an addict, sounds very appealing.

Right. You did at one point this season have sessions with the two unique pairs within it.

Yeah, they're dancing around this term primary partner. Yeah. And there's some hesitation and one person to declare a primary partnership.

It has a very interesting take on it. It's almost like I see the generation before me. I see their approach. I see the outcome. I see the system and the results of the system. So maybe I'm rejecting all parts of the system or many parts of the system. This one would be the most fundamental for minimally American history.

Yeah, you're either together, but you hate each other or your divorce.

Yeah, historically, 95% of the time we've been here as a species, we were not monogamous. Yeah. We have much, much proof in the archaeological record that generally high status people had multiple partners and wives, and it was communal. So yeah, it is new.

Well, there's a ton of people who are anti-monogamy that I'll tell you a lot of it is transference of property.

Yes, in the ability to join families, join alliances, the control of I'm putting this daughter with that king's son, the Catholic church.

Then we get into another thing that we don't have anymore as a really clearly defined hierarchical order of the group we're in, which would have been a hundred members. So all this anxiety we have about where we are on the status ladder would have been assigned and defined. And you actually wouldn't have spent much time thinking about it. You would have said, oh, I'm gamma in this situation. There's no aspiring to hire. I'm here. So in a bizarre way, like things were much more defined, but here in this individual, you could be the highest status person in America. And 10 years, you could be the lowest status. We don't know. And then we look for all these symbols to alleviate our anxiety about that hierarchical status. And some of those involved with single partner and the most desired and all these different things. So I definitely think it's cultural. I don't think it's criminal or biological.

Yeah, the one in particular on the show this season, I'm like, oh my god, it's two wipes is what it is. It's hard enough to just be with one person and you're just doubling that.

Yes. I guess I want to end with the thing that I think is the biggest gift of the show, at least for us in a lot of other couples. I know that watch it. It is so comforting to see that it is hard, that it's not a fairy tale, that it's a lot of work, it's a lot of communication, it's a lot of thoughtfulness of where you're trying to go. You won't just get there. The simple fact that every single patient you've had on the show One person wants more sex and one wants less. I mean, that's the most universal one. A couple. That's comforting. Yeah. You just admittedly go like, oh, yeah, this is a different.

Radically different and all the same thing. That's the comfort of A is like, I'm not alone. No, and you're not alone is so deeply comforting. And I think you really put on display how much you can tackle these things. Your hopefulness is really quite infectious. I think that's my summation of why.

Yes. Okay. I have one last personal question for you, which is spending your days in your emotional energy waiting through all of this. How has that impacted your own life in partnering? My life and partnering. Meaning in your personal life, does it have an impact on for you partnering up with somebody?

to be trusted is one of the most beautiful things.

You're a cop in a way.

But in an inordinate amount that a human's probably not designed to observe.

I'll add there's the housekeeper who doesn't clean their own house. I was a car preper for 14 years and I had the dirtiest car in the world. I'm not going to wash my car after I've been washing cars. So I can imagine also a little bit of a tea. It's all day and then you walk in your kitchen and I'll fuck it. Now I got to do this for me now.

Yeah. Well, Orna, this has been so wonderful for me, too.

Talk about privilege. Like the phone, love with someone, untie me and then actually get to sit with them.

It's very, very exciting. I love to show so much. Monica loves to show so much. The new season is out on the 31st. Do you know where it's strange now? A little confused by that. You see me on Showtime, but they might not know about it.

Oh, okay. Great. It's on Paramount Plus.

I know. Shout out to our friend Jedadaa Jenkins. We were interviewing him and he crossed a lot of ties about how we have to be watching couples. They're really ironically. I was on a flight three days later. I'm scrolling there. I'm like, oh, there's that thing. Watch too. Got to my hotel room. Okay. I'm not going to have a. Once you start, there is no stopping cannot recommend it enough. It's so comforting. Whether you're in a relationship or not, but I find it enormously comforting. I hope we get to do this again. Nico, great job. Nico's here for the listener. If you do watch a couple of therapy and you know about Nico, the dog. Nico joined us and was a very good girl. you know at first I think because you said can I bring Nico or someone's reach out to us and we were like of course and then I thought stupidly I'm like oh I wonder if Nico is a comfort dog and then I run enough interviews about you that actually Nico has tremendous approach You can just can't endlessly find your way into these situations like your dog. It's a patient.

Nico knew that she was being talked about so she's showing up. Okay, so much fun adore you. Everyone watched season four of couples therapy on the 31st. No, it's all because of the fact that I don't even care about the fact that I just want to give it to your parents.

I kind of put the sign for you.

Lincoln was wearing hers, so we got plenty of it. The tension, yeah. Oh, you were recording here last. I can always tell with your headset volume. Yeah. Yeah, my, my long sleeve t-shirt that I've been in for 25 hours. Yeah. It was so filthy. So I had to quickly put on, yes, stains everywhere. That kind of off-white color, not a great choice for an airplane ride. And then I, I quickly grabbed a shirt and I thought, gun them where my Taylor Swift shirt for you.

Oh, you haven't white? Yeah. I do too.

Yeah, all right, right, right, right, right.

Yeah, so this could be a high risk scenario.

Well, I already got what I wish for. But boy, was it eventful? I mean, did you already hear any of the drama?

Okay, hit me with what your theory is. I thought, oh, no, because I wouldn't imagine this could have traveled through the pod by this point.

Right. I wasn't in the hospital. Well, though, you could play connections in the hospital.

Right. And I just was playing connections like what we know. Yeah, exactly.

Oh, that's a good pick.

Okay, it's much worse than that. Oh my god, and we're not editing. So this is going to be a tricky story to tell, but okay, for reasons it'll be kind come obvious. Okay, so Thursday morning, Lincoln and I get up. We're so excited. I cannot express how excited we both were for two whole weeks leading up to this. It's like the most excited we've been about anything ever. So we are on it. We leave early. We ride the motorcycle to the airport. We're there so early. I've got the bags like fucking spongy, straight, not bungee, but ratchet strap to the side of the motorcycle. Oh my God. Carry on only. We said so that we could ride the motorcycle. We get there. We're high five and we're already celebrating. We're we're supposed to be there two hours early. We're there two hours and 15 minutes early. Wow. Checking in on a united flight, which is supposed to go from LA to Fuck now, I can't even remember where we were.

Oh my God, yes, we were vine washing and decing them from DC direct to Lisbon. So we're checking in, I'm feeling so good. We're so happy. And she's scanning Lincoln's passport. And she does it like five times in a row. And she looks at me and she goes, there's a problem with your daughter's passport. It's expired. And my, my whole soul left my body. because this isn't something you can solve. Like we are only like the way this is going to shake out with everything going perfectly is we're going to get their Friday. afternoon. And then we're going to have Friday night and then Saturday is the concert. Okay. It's 11 35 at the time. I don't even know what time it is. And Lincoln immediately starts crying as you expect because this isn't like, um, it's Disneyland. It's not Disney. And there's nothing to replace it with. I have this immediate thought of like, oh, what now? What do we do? How do we salvage this? There's no salvaging it because you, it's Taylor Swift. Yeah. And it's Saturday in like there wasn't a bunch of other flights even in the best case scenario. Yeah. We don't have a passport. So I immediately call like everyone I know that might know someone that has like a fixer.

And also trying to act like to Lincoln that we're going to solve this in my mind, we're not going to solve this like this where you're like, oh, because how am I going to get a passport. I know in the next few hours, then return and hope there's a flight that night that gets us in it.

No, there's no Sunday show. That's Saturday. That's it.

Yes. And like so many things are going through my mind. It's like, this isn't going to work when I'm going to act like we're going to just keep trying. And also, what would be a backup plan? So I'm also like filing through. We go to Orlando to know, you know, again, nothing's going to what we're going to do. And I know we're going to, we're going to drive home and have the worst weekend in our life because we were so excited. So I basically get on the phone with a fixer. The fixer says, I can pull a bunch of strings. It's so much money. And I can get you in a appointment at 10 a.m. on Friday. That's the earliest. And I'm like, that is not going to help. And he's like, that's all that can be done. And I'm like, goodbye. I go, let's go Lincoln. I strap the luggage back to the motorcycle. We then race to the federal building on Willshire.

And Santa, yes. We'll sure in the four of us.

But a mess. It's like traffic city. Like we get up there. We walk in. Well, we don't walk in. You're not allowed to walk in there.

This part of the story is gonna get dicey.

It didn't work. We.

We get up there. I don't want anyone trouble.

Bottom line, let's just say this, a complete miracle happened. I was able to enter there, but you need both parents. You can't get a passport for your kid without both parents, because I could be a kid's a parent, like stealing the kid. So I am like calling Chris, and you know she won't answer. I'm text her. This is kind of emergency. I really need to answer. Luckily, she then faced time. I go, you need to get to the federal building right now and get her birth certificate from home. Which I don't even know if we know where that's at, right? God bless Chris and I don't know how she was in a rehearsal for for Reef her madness in a theater and she In Hollywood in Hollywood and she scaled up to the federal building like 24 minutes later Wow with the the birth certificate. Oh My God long story short We walk out of there at 3 p.m. with a fucking passport And now I'm like, how do we get to, I find a flight that leaves at 7 p.m. That goes to London. That then goes to Paris. That then goes to Elizabeth.

Wow. So now we have like four plus hours in the airport. We got there to love in the flights at seven. We have this trip to the federal building, but you know, it's a long day. Now a really nice icing cherry on the cake was we're checking in and I hear Lincoln go hi Lauren I look behind me Lauren Graham's checking in for what I'm like oh my god, I'm like you're not gonna believe she where you're going I go no you're not gonna believe this we didn't have a password you know, I think I go through those right so we hung out with Lauren and Sam Pancake for two of the hours which was really really fun

Sand Pancakes are great actor and one of Lauren's best friends and he's super funny and wonderful. And they were going to Scott one together or something. Oh, five. So whatever we kill another three hours in the airport and then we fly to London then we fly to Paris and we fly to Lisbon and we get in at basically one in the morning on Friday night. So all told We only lost 12 hours.

Not terrible. I mean, I really up until. Wow. Like when we landed in Lisbon, I've never felt like I pulled off the impossible more than any other moment in my life.

Oh, this takes for so high.

Yeah, I know passport. You're like this sad. Yeah, this is done. Oh, so then Saturday we We're like, are we gonna walk around a bit? But we were fucked from the day before. And also a adrenaline dump for those three hours before we got the password that we're writing.

Well, tell you, she cried intermittently, but she had her ship together and then was timing on the motorcycle. She was all business. And then when we got to the thing and found out you couldn't go inside that building, she started bawling. kind of the perfect time imaginable. But we were like, you know what, we're not going to be ambitious on Saturday. We woke up. We went down to the pool. We took a swim. The whole hotel is sweaty. Oh, I missed the best part. When we got in at 1230 or whatever, when we pulled up to our hotel, we found out she was staying at our hotel. So, so Lincoln stayed on the balcony of our room waiting for the police motorcade to bring her back, which she saw. So Lincoln was like screaming from the balcony. Oh, that is- Oh, that is- I'm like, girl, play, cool, you got to play cool because if we pump into her, you can't be like fucking hollering.

No, if we have any shot of getting like invited to lunch with her or something, we got to be like, huge fan, but I'm not going to freak you out.

Okay, okay, I just, I had bigger fantasies. I'm like, we're gonna bump into her. And we're gonna have lunch with her or something. Oh my God. This was my fantasy. Anyways, so everyone at the hotel is Swifties. Wow. So it's really fun already. Everyone's like, are you here to see Taylor Swift? So all the little girls are talking, right? And I, I'm the only dad there as you would imagine. This is like a bunch of moms with their daughters. And I'm at the pool. And then we go to the show and This is now listen. We thought we like winks.

I'll let you decide.

Oh God. In fact, I'm gonna, I know we're not editing and we're in a little bit of a time crunch, but I am gonna try to quickly just send you one video while I tell you about the show kicks off. You know better than anyone, you've already been. It's incredible, right? I mean, all pink, I should say. I got a full pink outfit so that I, because you have to go as an album as you already know, and Lincoln wanted me to go as lover. And so I had a whole outfit. So I was head to toe pink. Okay, I'd see if this video went through. Because to my knowledge, this song has never been played at a Taylor Swift show. Okay, hold the crank the volume.

That's my song that she wrote about me if I need to remind the listeners.

He's so tall and handsome as hell. I say bad, but he does it so well. When she fucking played wildest dreams, I lost my mind.

Because she doesn't play this one. That's what I've been told.

It was not a kiss. She played a bunch of songs off of T. T. P. D. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Cause she also played. So my, My three favorite songs are wildest dreams. Lavender.

Wait, did she play that when you were?

Oh, I don't know how to do it. And then willow. That's in there too.

Yes, okay, so but well I gotta set up just really quickly of course my joke for two months has been that she's going to play wildest because I tell my children that she wrote this song about me I know it's only a longstanding thing that Taylor said it was written a song about your dad and fucking by God She pulled that out and Lincoln was like she didn't play that in LA. Oh my duh

This is clearly I'm joking. We very clear I'm joking, but I did let my imagination wander. Of course. What if she's a goddamn huge fan of the podcast?

Just because she won't do it doesn't mean she's not a huge fan. And I was talking about going to the show and I've also talked a million times about the songs about me. I don't really think that happened, but I let myself for like 1% of my brain fantasized that was what was happening and that she loves winking too. Like why not?

People love to wink. This is my conclusion.

I mean, maybe one day, she could be the, why couldn't she be? We don't hear about everyone that. So they're often we have a guest come in and they all said they tell us they love to show and that's blows our mind.

Okay. That's huge. That's huge, but that's not to say she's ready enough to every single person she likes.

Also, Ellison's more of an underdog.

I delivered for me, though. I get those three. It's so long. It was I looked. It was, um, I think three, three hours and 30 or three hours and 40 minutes. Yeah. But in reality, it only felt like an hour and 45 and we didn't have seats. We were standing the entire time.

Yeah. I changed bracelets with people. Yes, of course. I brought bracelets back for the people that worked at the hotel because they couldn't go to the show. That's nice. Yeah, I got into the spirit of it. It was really fun.

It is. It totally is. I was I was crying. I didn't cry as much as I thought I might because I was pretty busy dancing. Oh sure. Although I did the I did cry a little bit while I was dancing because we were because one point we were really dancing Lincoln and I it was so fun.

Oh, okay. It's gonna be hard because I'm a little bit of a mess right now. Okay, so I'll just be through the rest. Then Sunday we we decide we're going to we're going to walk Lisbon all of Lisbon which we damn near did we walked miles and miles and miles and miles we took a tuck tuck ride Yeah, as did a talk to her the city and then had them drop us at this big castle and then I said to Lincoln Lincoln was all over the map. She was just like me. She's such a control free and I said to her I'm gonna ask you to really roll the dice and and trust that I can walk from this castle back to our hotel and I'm not gonna look at the map or anything. Wow And it was all twisty crazy. You know, Portuguese, Lisbon, these streets. And I walked a straight to the hotel. Wow. And she declared I'm gonna trust you now for your directions forever. I'm sure that'll change.

That's good. But it was great. It was such a metal of honor. Valor. And of honor. We walked. I was so proud of her. Because she's 11. But she walked the entire time. She walked. I meant we walked. 10 miles. Yeah.

That was a big reward. You know, it's funny is of course you don't want to take your kids to McDonald's because you're in another country and you want to try something fun. But then I remember remembering when I went to Germany with my mom and I used to I only wanted to see if I can make that move. I wanted to do so bad. She let me once. It was a battle and I'm like, you know, I'm going to do it. Yeah. It's the nicest thing that I've ever been to in my life.

Not that I noticed. No, it was pretty standard. Make that almost fair. Okay. And then Monday, we've already walked the city. We were like, oh, let's go explore this park. So we explore the park. And then I was like, I really want to write a mo petter on this city. The scooter. And she's like, look it up. See if there is one, there was one like point one miles away. We walk into this place, Eurocar. They've got like 20 motorcycles you can rent. 10 minutes later, we're driving away. They got helmets. And then we grew, we ripped through Lisbon all day on a motorcycle.

A scooter. Oh, like a 250. Like it went pretty fast.

Yeah, so scootered all day yesterday and then had to wake up at three a.m. to get in the car at four to be at the airport for our six a.m. flight to Germany and then three hour layover all that say I got up at three which was six p.m yesterday.

I lost you at the motor scooter. You're I started wandering. You're realizing there was a new new item. I'm like, what is she looking at? Well, these are talking about the CCs. That's probably where you went.

Yes. It was a, it was incredible. Really special.

Unreal. I mean, that's the most adrenaline I've had in some time. That's, yeah. I think it took a year and a half off my life. I think it's worth it. It's a good trick.

You've continued on.

Because the last fact check you were like, I remember why I stopped watching it. Because of all the death. Yes, but it made me fearful that you were then going to bail out.

Oh, yeah, and I'm sure. It's like the most famous ending of a TV show.

OK. And then that's you.

Yeah. Yeah. I haven't even seen it. I haven't seen the last season. I think I watched the first three seasons. Got it. But I do know what I think most people know what happened.

Yeah. Who's just starting it?

Oh, last thing, I watched the bookie on the flight home. Sebastian show. Yeah. I love that. It's fantastic. Nice. Yeah, I can't wait to see the next scene. Yeah, he's filming the second season right now.

Well, we have, um, two tomorrow, two guests tomorrow. So, Yeah, a little bit of anxiety that Mike, I'm so upside down. Because right as we about to, you know, we said my got adjusted there, we're like we woke up at a 30-nip felt kind of normal to immediately then wake up at three, which didn't match anything. So now we're waking up at 7 p.m. last night. Yeah. Here in America lamb.

So I'm like fuck now we're flipping it completely upside down. So I just I'm hopeful that I my fantasy my dream is I ain't go to bed at 8 p.m. and sleep till 7 a.m. till I take the kids school. If I can somehow manage to get 11 hours, I feel like I'll be good. But I'm a little anxious that might clock as adjusted to that other place.

Okay. I appreciate your optimism.

What a joy to meet Anna.

She's better in real life, which I was nervous. She's so comfortable in her practice. And you get to see such a privilege side of her. Yes. You bright, that only her patience would. So I don't know, but in person, it will weigh over delivered for me.

Oh, no, yeah, tell me.

Yeah, you found out some bad news that day the day before the day before right.

And so when you were editing, did you start crying?

Yeah. I think I've had the experience of why I was watching myself in parenthood and a scene that I was sad. And I got sad hearing myself sad. Like, I'm your neuron myself.

You would have felt a little unprofessional.

Yes, this is a guess. I'm trying to imagine if I came on to any kind of show and one of the host started crying right at the beginning because because of me, That'd be hard to recover. I feel really guilty.

Yeah, good job. I'm going to play generally you should express your feelings, but I'm really glad you didn't. That's that's too much of you make the host cry.

But she would have known she was she had the same opinion as me. So

But it, it was that I don't think you got a soft pedal due way out of that. If you start crying right after she stabbed something, and you go, no, it's about him.

We've done that to other therapists.

Yeah, I like it.

I got to wonder to get into that a little bit.

Right. Right. It was a big moment.

Okay, Greg. And you didn't dance with the question you didn't. Go like, okay, now I'm gonna let this out as you're editing.

You didn't get taken back to that.

There was only one example of that in anthropology. And I want to say it was in the Andes are the Himalayas. It was some really high-ups. No, we high elevation place where that was the system that made the most sense. because they needed more men to keep them warm well in a pile I guess it's I can't remember the details of why that environment demanded that arrangement but anyways there was a group had enough ethnography done on them that was

The do's in the Middle East have a lot of.

Yeah.

Hmm. One in five. Mm-hmm. You had only practiced by point five.

But there was some really specific nomenclature she hit me with. That they got actual group on that because I think I called them a threple.

Okay. Polycule.

Oh.

Right, and an exclusive relationship to those three people.

Yeah, the polyq, they were cool. Very cool. They were. No, they were, they were free to mess about as much as they wanted in any direction.

Oh, my God. What is season?

But yeah, but spell weirdly.

Okay. Maybe that's not too silent, Pauli. Pauli, sign line on that.

Are you gonna get me a list? Oh, great.

Was that where you're asking?

Okay, I think I'm going to go with secure.

Oh, okay. Was your, did you remember when you were a baby? Yeah. Okay. My mom, I have a luxury of pros and cons, she didn't work, until I was three. So I had her attention all day long. Although I was colloquy and she wanted to kill me for the first year.

Well, Carol, Sarah, for nourishment. And then, I'll be at two, to give me a shot of the fuck off. That was adorable. She was in here and just, she remembered the name of it, but she didn't really ever explore what it was. Remember we looked it up. Was this an eyedropperful of you?

I often think that I probably was destined to be like six, five or something.

As tall as Max? Oh, shut up. Oh, damn you. So I'm being ganked up on. Yeah. What were we talking about?

Oh, yeah, yeah. But I wandered around and I talked to adults and stuff.

Oh, I explored.

Yeah. Well, that's what Gabor was. He was ambivalent when he was reunited with his mom. This bull sound a powerful, and I can only tell you what I've been told my whole life. So we lived in the country, and I would play in my sandbox most of the day with my Tonga trucks, and we had a German Shepherd named dog, which you've heard this. It was our neighbor's dog, and then we ended up, he went, he slept at our house. He would only go home to eat, and finally they brought the dog to show her. And so, and we always called him dog, because we didn't know his real name. I just feel dogs here. Best dog we ever had, German Shepherd. So he would stay out there in the sandbox with me while I played. And my mom would do chores around the house and she looked out the window and I was not in the sandbox. So she went out in the backyard and I was not in the backyard. And the driveway was very long. had to be an eighth of a mile long. It was in the country and we shared a drive with a couple of other people dirt little dirt driving in my mom's like looking all through the backyard and she hears honking those of honking oh no and she runs in the front and she just follows all this honking she runs down the driveway and I am in the middle oh Oddly, it's actually called middle road. We lived off a middle road. I am in the center of middle road. There's a bunch of traffic backed up in both directions. And dog is with me. I'm playing with a tongue truck in the road. Yes, and anytime someone tries to get out of their car to help the baby out of the street, dog goes bananas and chases them back to their car. And then just goes around a circle of me. And then my mom comes out there and takes me off. It takes me to.

She really had fucking losing your kid in the country. We like lived in the country.

By the way, it must have taken me. I don't know how much she's claiming she looked up. That would have taken you in a house long to get from the backyard down to the right.

Maybe he took me down there. What a good dog though, right?

Oh my god, that's the most important thing. Nico, were we talking about in the episode at all? Yes. That's, that's, I mean, other than the Mac, that might be mine. The second paper dog I've ever met.

It was a person.

And smile a lot. Yeah, she would just smile up a storm if you better.

Yeah, there wasn't a firm attachment somehow.

I think anyone would. I mean, that dog was really something.

Just, well, I had that dog. And then my dad, when I was in about fifth grade got married for a year or so. And he bought a house and I think he was going to do the whole thing. Sure. And he bought a new phone.

Yeah, I'll because of this dog. Oh, his name was Machiever and Machiever, uh, Machiever was the cheapest dog from this litter because by the way, the step mom wanted a new phone for whatever reason. John had some affinity for a new phone. They had picture books in their house in Traverse City of Newfoundland. This one was cheapest because he had what they told us was the mom sat on his tail when he was a puppy. So he didn't have a tail and he was so fluffy. He looked, I would walk him in my dad's neighborhood and all the little kids thought we had a bear. Everyone in the neighborhood thought we had an actual bear. Oh, he looks so much like a bear. Yeah, the dog was not well taken care of while we were not there on every other weekend. Yeah. Okay. So I have a, I have a real sad spot in my heart for new. Thank you very much, McEver. And then that makes me love new fees. They're so sweet.

Yeah. He was 160 pounds. And their job, you know, how the St. Bernard's would find alpineers and bring them Brandy. They have a little thing of Brandy on the night, and they would lay on them. You know, that's what Saint Bernard's are. They're avalanche dogs. They would rescue people that were stranded wall out in the... Rob, who sent that?

Oh my god. Oh, that was kind of really good. I felt for it.

Newvillins are the water version of that. So they would swim out when they were shipwrecks and men would put their arms around those newvillins and they would swim them all the way to shore.

Oh, you'd be free to drown all you want.

Although the same brand does have boozer on its neck.

Well, it would be nice though if your dog brought you booze.

Yeah. You need booze way more than you need rescuing from drowning. That's a search for now.

Nico.

Yeah, a different man would come in. This is what lions do. When a lion, oh, don't look at the steps.

One of lion overthrows a pride and becomes the new alpha. The first thing he does is kill all the kittens in the litter. So that's the mom, all the chicks will go into estrus. Okay. And so there, it is believed that that happened when invaders came into You know, human villages and whatnot that they would also want to get everyone pregnant as possible. But a dad would never kill his own offspring to get the mother to go back into Esther. Because I know they're still killing offspring. Yes, I think they're referring to like competing males would be incentivized to do that.

Where are all these come from? I mean, these are CNN health. CNN. Okay. Well, and though we learned it was just an economic system. Right. And so as economies change people with the single family dwellings, there's all these many property ownership, passing of property. Yeah.

Well, but even in ones that were polygamous, there was a very rigid system in place, like that A male got access to many other females, but the lower ranking males didn't have families. Yeah. So it wasn't like Willie Nilly. Yes. It was very controlled even though it seemingly is Like, just go hook up with people. Even when it was polygamy, I don't think it was just go hook up with people.

Um, the us of a on that list. The you, uh, you don't you have a hard time getting people to admit to here exactly, which is why I think I think half of people. I think that's still roughly what happens here.

I just don't know if I would believe that people would admit to it here.

U.S. World Health and Report. Is that what you said it was?

Okay, WorldPopulationReview.com.

Well, there's no way there to cheat with.

Oh, there was one, sorry.

Well, Orna wasn't dropping tons of stats on us.

She was dropping her. Not a unique dialed in.

She looked really cool.

No, seemingly not. But also seem fun.

I really got a hunch like, oh, yeah, she'd be a fun person I've dinner with.

By the way, your skin looks great.

You're completely melted.

Yeah, do you feel baby like?

We're going to be babylike.

Yeah, you went through the torture of it all.

Why don't I do the whole thing?

Oh, how often can you do it?

I'm not sure. Oh, the dermis. It tolerate.

Yeah. OK. So I got to really get our guest schedule ironed out before you know, I know.

But you were telling me about what your diet was. You, you ate a bunch of what?

Oh, really? What are those? 30, 40 bucks?

Oh, yeah. Sorry, I forgot to not ask you anything with me.

Yeah, I don't want to misrepresent the place, but I do think I had a friend that was telling me he was going there and giving me $36. If you put the ticket to add-ons, go on and stuff.

Yeah. Okay, great. Then my claim wasn't.

I can already have one today. Oh, you're yet. Have you had two and one day yet? No, okay. Well today might be that day. Maybe All right. I love you. Welcome back. Thank you. Great to see you. What's funny is it only feels like five days since you saw me, but it feels like three and a half weeks. You know when you have those trips?

Okay. Right. But the the the the passport fans go. Oh, yeah. That was like two weeks ago for us.