Transcript for What Jesus Means by “Turn the Other Cheek”

SPEAKER_04

00:00 - 00:52

Hey, this is John at Bible Project. This year we've been exploring the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. We're currently taking questions for our third question and response episode in this series. We'll be looking at questions from episode 15, which is the I for I passage, all the way up until the Lord's prayer begins. So send us your questions by May 20th and send it to info at BibleProject.com. Let us know your name, where you're from, and try to keep your question to about 20 seconds or so. And if you can transcribe it, when you email it in, that's a real big help for our team. We look forward to hearing from you. Now, here's the episode. This is Bible Project Podcast, and this year, we're reading through the sermon on the Mount. I'm John Collins and with me is co-host Michelle Jones, Hi Michelle.

SPEAKER_02

00:52 - 01:02

Hi, John. So we're in the part of the sermon on the Mount where Jesus teaches that the Hebrew Bible that is the Torah and the prophets has profound wisdom for us today.

SPEAKER_04

01:02 - 01:14

Right. So Jesus has been quoting from laws in the Torah. These were given to ancient Israel to guide them in their day and then Jesus teaches his followers the deep ethical wisdom within the laws that can still guide us.

SPEAKER_02

01:15 - 01:25

Right, we've been calling these case studies and we've gone through four of them so far. We looked at murder, adultery, divorce, and truth telling.

SPEAKER_04

01:25 - 01:32

Today we look at the fifth case study. Jesus quotes a famous line from the Torah and I for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

SPEAKER_02

01:32 - 01:34

You knock out my tooth? I knock out yours.

SPEAKER_04

01:34 - 01:41

Yeah, and while this law can sound brutal and vengeful, it's purpose in the ancient world was to counter our impulse for revenge.

SPEAKER_05

01:41 - 01:55

This can sound for some people like its license to get even. The intent of the rule was in many ways the opposite. It was about putting a ceiling on vengeance getting out of control.

SPEAKER_02

01:55 - 02:02

At the heart of this ancient law is this wisdom. Humans are particularly bad at knowing how to exact justice.

SPEAKER_04

02:03 - 02:12

yet injustice is all around us. So what do you do when you're experiencing injustice? What do you do when those who are doing wrong don't seem to care?

SPEAKER_02

02:13 - 02:41

So Jesus gives us three scenarios. We know them as turn the other cheek. Give them your cloak as well and go the extra mile. Now, at first glance, these scenarios could look like a passive response that allows a perpetrator to continue to do harm, but as we'll see, these scenarios are anything but passive. In fact, they open up our imagination for how to boldly stand against injustice, but in creative nonviolent ways.

SPEAKER_04

02:42 - 02:47

Today Michelle, you'll join Tim and I in this discussion and I really appreciate your perspective on these issues.

SPEAKER_02

02:47 - 02:52

It was a challenging but a really good conversation and I'm glad I was part of it.

SPEAKER_04

02:52 - 03:00

So let's jump in with Tim looking at Matthew 5 38 through 42 to see Jesus' vision for how to pursue justice.

SPEAKER_02

03:00 - 03:01

Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_04

03:01 - 03:23

Here we go. Hey Tim. Hey John. Hi. Hi Michelle. Hi John. Let's talk about this case study.

SPEAKER_05

03:24 - 04:15

Case study number five. Interestingly, this is one of the sayings of Jesus where it really, really matters. The ancient cultural context into which Jesus uttered these words. You know, sometimes there's parts of the Bible where you learn some context and you're like, ooh, that deepens. What I kind of already thought, but just it's even deeper and more beautiful or cool. And then there's sometimes where you're like, whoa, that's different. Yeah. Changes what I thought this was about in surprises me. And challenges me. Yeah, this was already a challenging thing of Jesus and at least in my experience understanding what Jesus was after in his cultural context makes it even more challenging, but in a way, the surprising.

SPEAKER_04

04:15 - 04:16

Michelle, would you read it for us?

SPEAKER_02

04:16 - 04:54

Sure. You have heard it said, and I, in recompense, foreign I, and the tooth, in recompense for a tooth. And I say to you, do not resist in kind and evil person, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him too. To the one who asks of you, give, and the one who wants to borrow from you, don't turn away.

SPEAKER_05

04:54 - 05:15

So just like all of the other six case studies, Jesus begins with you've heard it said, and he provides some kind of quotation or summary of either one of the commands in the Torah or people's interpretation of it. And this is an example where it's just a straight up quotation.

SPEAKER_04

05:15 - 05:17

I for nine, two, three, two. Yep. And where's it come from?

SPEAKER_05

05:19 - 07:32

It comes from the Torah. Actually, there's three places that have this phrase that he's quoting from or this idea. So one passage is in Exodus chapter 21. It's restated in another example in Leviticus 24 and then restated in another example is in Deuteronomy chapter 19. But in all of it, it's examples of where one person is wrong to another. And then it lists this set of items. So in Exodus 21, if there is serious injury, somebody got hurt, you are to take life for life. I for I, tooth for tooth hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. Pretty exact. Pretty long list. Notice it goes from just life, big category. to eye and tooth, so keep parts of the face, hand and foot, and then these like injuries. Yeah, injuries burn wound bruise. So it's various types of ways you can get hurt if you're in a bite with somebody. In Leviticus it adds fracture for fracture. So it seems like I for I-2s for 2s was kind of the shorthand to signal the whole list and the whole concept. It does sound kind of brutal. Totally. You take my eye, I'll poke out your eye. Yeah. You know, it's easy to hear it as vengeful, like you heard me, I hear you. So this law actually is stated three times in the Torah. It's referred to as the law of retaliation, or sometimes by the Latin phrase, Lex Talionus. So this was actually an ancient law already to Jesus, not just because it was in the Torah, but because it was ancient even in the time of Moses. So the earliest written examples of this principle of the I, for I, two sort of two type of example comes from a number of ancient Near Eastern law codes, one of the most famous ones, or maybe people know of the law codes of King Hummaropy. Babylonian king. Does anybody know about homeropy?

SPEAKER_02

07:32 - 07:35

Yeah. No one knows about this but you, Tim.

SPEAKER_04

07:35 - 07:40

Really? You're not familiar with homeropy. I probably wouldn't be, except for having had a conversation.

SPEAKER_05

07:40 - 07:46

Okay. All right. I guess I thought maybe he still comes up in high school. History class.

SPEAKER_04

07:46 - 07:48

Oh, no. Not my high school. That's right.

SPEAKER_05

07:48 - 08:47

Okay. He was a king of Babylon in the second millennium BC. Just old school ancient Near Eastern King. Okay. And there was this big, cool statue found of him making an offering at the throne of a son God and the God revealing to him all of these wisdom and laws that are contained in these law codes. And it's a few hundred ancient Near Eastern Laws called the Code of Home Rope. Wow, yeah, there we go. So among them are a number of statements that sound very similar. For example, if a Lord in here, this is about somewhat of high social rank, if a Lord has destroyed the eye of a member of the ruling class, they will destroy his eye. If he has broken the bone of a Lord, they will bring his bone. If a Lord has knocked out the tooth of the Lord of his own rank, they will knock out his tooth.

SPEAKER_02

08:47 - 08:51

So if he does something to somebody who's just a slave, nobody cares.

SPEAKER_05

08:51 - 09:22

That's right. Yeah, it would be less. So actually here's, but this is interesting. As you go on to read in the laws, and I'm looking here at an excerpt from Mayhem Sarnas, a Jewish scholar, Comitarian Exodus. He's commenting on this. He notes that prior to Hammarabi, monetary compensation was the rule in recompense for bodily injury. And this is true of all of these different laws. In other words, if you destroy someone's eye, you have to pay the money.

SPEAKER_04

09:22 - 09:42

You were to sign a value to the eye. Yes. And you'd pay them the money. Yep. That's right. I mean, that makes sense. And that's still at the basis of our judicial system today. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. If you're going to sue someone, you sign a value based off what it's really worth. And that's what you get. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02

09:42 - 09:49

Yeah. Because nobody's going to you break my leg. I'm going to be allowed to break your leg back.

SPEAKER_04

09:49 - 09:57

Try to imagine the scenarios where that actually is the way you do it like. kind of doesn't really solve my legs still broken and now your legs broken.

SPEAKER_05

09:57 - 11:37

Yeah. So most likely, even though the literal reading of the law is you poke out my eye, I get to poke out yours. The way it was typically applied and most of the law ancient lockups we know about was a monetary fine, which makes a lot more sense. I think the main point to get is that this can sound to some people like its license to get even. The intent of the rule was in many ways the opposite. It was about putting a ceiling on vengeance getting out of control, like putting a stopper. So if you take out my eye, I can't take your life. But that actually, it's not hard to imagine that happening, you know? Whether it's in a street brawl of like my eye, I can't see out of anymore and you go into a blind rage and you take someone's life. Essentially, the law is addressing two problems. One is trying to get even, but like overcompensating, you take my eye, take your life. But second, it is trying to prevent the escalation of, you know, I may be, I'm just thinking of Romeo and Juliet. The family, yeah, like blood feuds, the gone for generations and it just escalates over more and more people die, more people injured. And it's an effort to put a cap that's like if someone's injured or wrong, the recompense is equal to the wrong and then we're done. So it really is an effort to put a stop on spiraling human violence.

SPEAKER_04

11:37 - 11:39

So that's the main tip. Let's put a ceiling on it.

SPEAKER_05

11:39 - 11:47

It's created a system so that the recompense that is due actually matches the scale of the wrong.

SPEAKER_04

11:47 - 11:51

Yeah, which then means that things won't spiral out of control.

SPEAKER_05

11:51 - 11:55

Yeah. Okay. So it's fairly intuitive on that level.

SPEAKER_02

11:55 - 12:04

So Anywhere in this is there the idea that vengeance and justice are not the same thing.

SPEAKER_05

12:04 - 12:39

Oh, interesting. The assumption here is that if I've wronged you and you're out in I, You could poke out my eye, but doesn't seem like the system was applied that way. It seems like what's the value? Yeah. What's the monetary value that you suffered? And now, if I've taken out your eye to make it right, I need to pay for that. Right. So I guess you could call it just recompense. But you're right. The English word revenge or retaliation. Vengeance. Right. Has idea of you get even, or things are made right, and plus.

SPEAKER_02

12:39 - 12:47

Yeah. And I want to punish you for what you did to me. Yeah. Not I want to make you justice. I want to make you pay for what you did.

SPEAKER_04

12:47 - 12:50

Yeah. Which, which then leads to escalation.

SPEAKER_02

12:50 - 12:51

Yes. Then you're in the Godfather.

SPEAKER_04

12:51 - 12:57

Yeah. Yeah. Right. And you're in an episode of Kill Billings. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

12:57 - 15:04

Yeah. That's right. So Jesus is response to this. It's really interesting. If we think that the law was originally giving license, like, hey y'all, open field, go get recompense. Yeah. Then GS' response feels like a true counter, like the opposite. But if what the law was intended to do was just create a level set on the amount that you can demand of recompense for damages, then Jesus' response, I think shifts a little bit, because the command wasn't, you have to demand recompense. It's just saying, if you're going to, you can't demand more than what's reasonable. Jesus, both, I think here in this saying, and then you can also see it playing out like in his life. He took really seriously a theme that's in the Hebrew Bible that humans are very imperfect judges of how to balance recompense. Yes. We're really poor at putting the iFRIED system like doing it right. And so there is a theme within the Hebrew Bible where Israel is at times called to not demand recompense or not retaliate and to trust. trusting in the character of God that God is the ultimate judge. For example, to drawn me 32, that's the famous line. Paul quotes it too, where God says, it is mine to avenge, I will repay. And again, the word avenge there, we might think, like, fair recompense plus. But the word just means recompense. Psalm 94-1 begins with a poem lamenting about really terrible people wreaking havoc in my Israelite town. Yahweh is the God who will bring recompense or avenge. Another good example is the story when David comes across Saul, King Saul, who's trying to kill him, going to the bathroom and a cave. Yeah. And he doesn't kill him.

SPEAKER_02

15:04 - 15:07

David's like, I could take you out right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

15:07 - 15:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

15:07 - 15:35

That's a good scene. Yeah. So after Saul does his business, ancient bidets, I don't know, goes out of the cave and David follows and yells after him. You know, and says, hey, I could kill you, but I didn't. And then he says, may the Lord judge between you and me, may Yahweh avenge the wrongs. You have done to me, but my hand won't touch you. And that's really the takeaway from this conviction about God is you're trusting God will be the one to recompense.

SPEAKER_02

15:35 - 15:38

I'm taking my hands off of it. I'm going to leave you to God.

SPEAKER_05

15:38 - 16:30

Yes. Yeah. And implied there is God will be a better judge than I would be. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's right. And that's how Paul in Romans, when he quotes this famous set of ideas in Romans 12, he says, don't take revenge, my friends. Leave room for God's anger. It is written. It is mine to avenge. I will repay. So, seems like what Jesus is saying is, don't try and engineer your own recompense. But then what he says, what his saying is in relation to this law, It's difficult to translate and I've labored long over this and tried to read the labor of other people. It's very difficult to capture and English what the Greek is doing here. So this will be a moment when we want to pause and become Greek nerds a couple minutes.

SPEAKER_04

16:30 - 17:52

Okay. Before we become Greek nerds, we just recap, I think. What I'm hearing. This law, found in the Torah, also found in a much ancient version in the Kodavamurabi, is this ancient, really kind of great law, which is preventing the human disposition, which is just to get back at people and make things worse. So it's creating a standard by which you can get what you deserve, but only what's fair. And then we're done. So the law that might sound kind of barbaric when it's stated as an iPhone IITs for two. When you realize there's a monetary value, you can get it, then you realize like this is what our whole judicial system's been done. So this is great. Yeah. And then what you're saying is that that isn't a command, like you have to do that. In fact, when you read the Hebrew Bible, you actually see this theme where it's better often to say, I'm going to let God work it out for me. He'll be the judge. I trust that He'll make it work. And so with all that in mind, Jesus quotes the law and he says, and I say to you, And then he'll say, what's the typical translation is? What's the typical interview? Do not resist an evil doer.

SPEAKER_05

17:52 - 17:59

Do not resist an evil doer. Do not resist an evil doer. To the standard English phrase, we hear. Let's just look it up.

SPEAKER_04

17:59 - 18:17

Or you look it up. I think the question of my mind is, if I'm going to just leave it open to God, right? Then it feels like a very passive thing to do. Yes. Okay. I'm not going to mess with that. I'm just going to trust God and I'm going to let evil do its thing unless God steps in. It's very passive.

SPEAKER_02

18:17 - 18:31

And not just passive. Something's already happened to me. Yeah. So I'm already hurt. I'm already hurt. I'm hurt. And I'm going to let you keep doing this to me is what is in the brain of a. That's what the word resist.

SPEAKER_05

18:31 - 18:38

Yeah. Communicates. Yeah. Don't make it stop. Don't think wrong happening. Don't try and stop it.

SPEAKER_04

18:38 - 18:44

Don't resist. And you're saying that's actually a difficult thing to translate. Yeah. And that's why you want to get into the nerdy.

SPEAKER_05

18:44 - 18:51

Yes. But I think it's important to just name that. That's what it sounds like. Yeah. It's just a name. That is certainly not what he means.

SPEAKER_04

18:51 - 18:55

He doesn't mean don't do anything.

SPEAKER_02

18:55 - 19:12

And he doesn't mean just allow what has happened to you to keep happening to you. That's right. And I mean just as a woman when I I can't tell you how many times I've had people actually say.

SPEAKER_04

19:12 - 19:16

Well, it says it right there. When you say you're as a woman and what context are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02

19:16 - 19:42

When women are abused and women are oppressed, particularly in marriages and in abusive relationships, many times they are told to go back into that situation because this Bible says don't resist. This Bible says turn the other cheek and that's that is frustrating and upsetting I think yeah

SPEAKER_05

19:44 - 20:22

Yeah, so what we're naming is the face value meaning of the English translation. We're not curious about what Jesus meant in his language. It's just here's what it seems to mean to me. And then that can be used to hurt people. What's tragic in these types of examples is that is certainly not what Jesus intended. But if you don't know that, and if you're not in a place or in a church community, that is curious about what Jesus might have meant in His language, then real quickly passage like this can, and does get abused to trap people in really bad situations.

SPEAKER_02

20:22 - 20:26

So then by all means, let's navigate it, let's occured up.

SPEAKER_05

20:26 - 24:47

I think there's two ways, one's about Greek, and so that may be a little less accessible. So I'll try and make that clear. But you could also just say, look at the three examples that he gives, and none of the three examples involve doing nothing. They all involve some kind of response. But the question is, well, what is that response? And how do we understand it? And it's just, just so happens like you read the meeting English, and they all just sound like be a dormant. So the three examples really it's about the ancient cultural context that really makes them pop with significance, but the phrase don't resist. It really comes down to the Greek phrase, it's used. Okay, so the actually key is Jesus is making a pun that links his response translated don't resist to the law of retribution. So up in the two statements of law of retribution in I for an I were tooth for tooth. That word for that preposition in English is translating a Greek preposition until which has a wide range of meaning, but in this context what it means is the thing in place of the thing that matches. In I, matching and I. And that tracks on English. It does. That means matching or same in kind or degree or level. That's one of the main meanings of anti. Okay. And Greek. In place of that. So what Jesus does is the word that He uses that gets translated resist. is a compound Greek word made of two parts. And one of those parts is that phrase anti, that preposition anti. So the word he uses is anti-stain-i. It's a compound anti, and then stain-i, which means to stand. So here, anti, is being used in another sense which can mean against like opposite like if I am standing in front of a wall you could say I'm standing until the wall in Greek like before it facing it yeah facing it or against it my faces against the wall okay so one typical use of on to stay and I or on to stay me to stand against means to oppose to stand against something that is to prevent it. Like if it's a moving object in use, anti-stain eye, you prevent it from going forward. On that meaning, it could be that Jesus is saying, if it has that meaning, something negative is happening to you, don't anti-stain eye. Don't oppose it. Don't stand against it. But then the three examples that he's going to give when you read them in cultural context don't mean that. Like, they mean the opposite of that. They actually are a kind of resistance. Opposition. But they're a very creative, courageous, bold twist on what it means to oppose something. And so there are many scholars who think that this is a pun. meaning that the anti is actually being used in the sense of don't stand against someone in a way that matches what they've done to you. So in I in place of an I, tooth in place of a tooth, don't let your standing against match how the other person is standing against you. But still stand against them. Yeah, still stand still stand still respond. But don't respond like that. But not the same posture. Yeah. So where we landed about project scholar team. We had five biblical scholars. We debated for almost an hour and a half. It's like just look at the nerve in the air. It's just, it was a great day. We looked at all the commentaries we can get our hands on the history of translation. And where we landed to try and communicate the idea that he meant was don't resist in kind, meaning they're standing against you. Don't stand against them in the same way that they are standing against you. That begs the question.

SPEAKER_02

24:47 - 24:47

No, what much better?

SPEAKER_05

24:47 - 24:55

What does that look like? And then the three examples, I think, provide kind of like the definition. Does that relatively clear?

SPEAKER_04

24:56 - 24:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_05

24:56 - 25:03

He's using the same precision and then saying don't stand over against the other.

SPEAKER_04

25:03 - 25:23

The preposition gets confusing to me. So let's just say the headline is the Greek word that gets translated resist. Mm-hmm. Could more appropriately mean resistant kind or like be oppositional in the same kind of posture. Mm-hmm. You're making them an enemy. Don't make them an enemy. Yeah. Stand against them, but don't make them the enemy.

SPEAKER_05

25:23 - 25:42

Yeah, stand in a way that you don't treat them the way they're treating you. He's riffing on eye for an eye. Yeah. But now he's saying is instead of it meaning gaining recompense of equal kind, don't treat them back in equal kind to the way they're treating you.

SPEAKER_04

25:42 - 26:04

Yeah, because what you want back is maybe your dignity, maybe the freedom, whatever's been taken from you, you want that back. But what Jesus seems to be saying is, don't fight for it back in the way they fought against you. So yes, I for I choose for tooth. And I say to you, in the manner in what you do that, it needs to be different.

SPEAKER_02

26:04 - 26:37

There's something to be said for how Jesus does that thing where man is always focused on the injury. I for an eye, tooth for tooth. He's like, no, let's let's move this conversation to people now. At first we're thinking, what's the injury? You did this to me, so I'm going to do this to you. And then he's going, no, I'm saying, and he gives these three examples, but they're all very personal people. Yes, that's right. Kind of examples that put you on the level of relationship at this point.

SPEAKER_05

26:37 - 27:35

So let's look at those three examples, just one little concluding note, one wonderful control tool. that's very helpful for interpreting the sermon on the Mount is because it was so foundational in early Christianity. The things of Jesus get re-quoted and we stated all over the New Testament. And so this line actually gets picked up by Paul a couple times and he changes the verb. Oh. It's very interesting. So in 1st, Thessalonians chapter 5, he says, see that no one repays another with evil for evil. Hmm. So instead of saying, resist, he gets repay, but he uses the same phrase, anti. Okay. That Jesus did. Evil, anti-evil. So he's assuming what Jesus meant was not just resistance in general, but standing against someone in the way that they've stood against you. Paul kinda makes a little more clear for me. Totally. I completely agree.

SPEAKER_04

27:35 - 27:45

Because Jesus could have said, you've heard it say, I have for I choose for truth, and I say, but not evil for evil. And all of a sudden, you're like, oh, I can probably go on.

SPEAKER_02

27:45 - 27:49

I need to figure this thing out. I need to be able to help these people. He's translating.

SPEAKER_05

27:49 - 32:09

Oh, yeah. He says it again in Romans 12. And he quotes from another saying, and just a paragraph later, bless those who persecute you, bless and don't curse. That's from the sermon on the mountain. And then he says, never pay back evil for evil. And there's onto you again to anyone. Do what is right. And the eyes of all men. never take your own vengeance, leave room for the vengeance of God. So it's a helpful test case too to see how the teachings of Jesus were received. But really it's the three examples that are where the action is and I'll be curious to see how you guys process this because this was a big deal for me. These three examples that felt like bipolar. So the first one is if someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer them the other. So one thing we know is that slapping wasn't something, and this is pretty intuitive. I think you still today slapping is more about insulting someone's honor or dignity than it is about actually trying to take them out. Yeah, you close your fist if you're going to take them out. That's right. So in that sense, nothing is changed, slapping throughout the Bible, old and new testament. It's always about shaming, public shaming. Yeah. So then the question is, okay, what about public shaming? What does a slap on the right cheek mean? Interestingly enough, throughout Jewish literature of the Second Temple period, there are many places that talk about the significance, the symbolic significance of right versus left hand. So whether we're talking about the mission, which is the collection of Jewish teachings after the time of Jesus, talking about discussions of rabbis from the time of Jesus, Or the writings of Josephus, who was the historian, or the writings of other Greek and Roman philosophers, just across the board, whenever the right cheek is mentioned, and you kind of have to stop and close your eyes and imagine it. But if you're being slapped on your right cheek from someone facing you, and if they're slapping with the right hand, which would be... They're dominant hand. It's a backhand slap. And here I'll just quote Craig Keener. It's commentary on Matthew here. Craig Keener is a sage guru of all things Greek and Roman cultural backgrounds. He puts it this way. He says, the backhanded blow to the right cheek did not imply shattered teeth. It was an insult. The severest public affront to person's dignity. God's prophets, sometimes suffered such ill treatment as Jesus would himself, yet, though this was more in a front to honor a challenge rather than a physical injury. Ancient Near Eastern societies typically provided legal recourse for this offense within Lex Talionus regulations. So in real true honor shame societies where your social rank is your and your family is kind of like life. It's you know, it's really a severe public offense. But you're you're actually putting someone down a rank. You're asserting dominance. Yeah. With the backhand it's lap. Yes, that's right. So if that's the case, then not backing down. Turn the other cheek. Yeah, not walking away, but standing right there. And then just looking in the eyes, the person did that, and then offering him your other cheek isn't doing nothing. What you're requiring them to do is slap you again, but this time, and open with an open hand. Yeah. And again, you can just go right through the literature that these scholars quote, that are an open palm slap. is symbolic of like a social equal.

SPEAKER_02

32:09 - 32:11

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05

32:11 - 32:31

So backhand is shaming, but the open hand is how you would slap someone of equal rank. Wow. Like it like almost like a challenge. Yeah. But you're forcing them to reevaluate you. And so you are not resisting in kind. It's resistance. But it's not resisting in kind.

SPEAKER_04

32:31 - 33:05

Yes. Resistance in kind would be to backhand slap them back. Um, which if you are in the lower rank and they're putting in your place, you're not going to do that. I mean, that's the death sentence. Yeah. But another way to resisting kind is to then screw you away and plot your revenge. Yeah. Right. When they're sleeping, you're going to slip an iPhone over something. Yeah. But Jesus is saying is offer that person an opportunity. Yeah. Slap you again. But this time as an equal.

SPEAKER_05

33:06 - 33:29

And it is in effect to say, why does it that you think that you need to treat me as lower or higher than yourself? What does this whole system anyway? That you think you need to do this to a certain who you think I am? It's in a way stating that I'm not controlled by your attempt to put me in a social rank.

SPEAKER_02

33:30 - 33:48

It's the James Baldwin quote. If I'm not who you say I am, then you're not who you think you are. You know, that's one of my favorite quotes of his. Yes. You know, it's like, I am not who you say I am by your behavior toward me. Yeah. Then you have to reevaluate who you are. Yes. You are.

SPEAKER_05

33:48 - 33:50

Yes. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02

33:50 - 34:03

You've been figuring out or you've been deciding who you are based on who you say I am. But if I'm not that by turning the other cheek, I'm telling you. No, I take my dignity back.

SPEAKER_05

34:03 - 34:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

34:04 - 34:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

34:04 - 34:11

It's all not yours. A demonstration, my honor is not determined by by the way you treat me.

SPEAKER_02

34:11 - 34:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_05

34:12 - 35:20

Yeah. It's rooted in something deeper. which for a disciple of Jesus is like, that's, yes, identity 101, you know, I'm a son or daughter of the father. When I was learning about the history of the civil rights movement, I will never forget the video footage of the Selma alabama march in 1965. And the marchers going across the bridge. And they were getting sprayed by fire hoses and having dogs. And they didn't walk away. Dogs like that on them. They didn't walk away. But also they didn't fight. They just kept slowly taking steps forward. And they didn't stop. And it's like the whole scene became this ridiculous expoze on what a first, the legal establishment was in that situation that we're setting dogs and firehouses on, unarmed people who were just saying, we have dignity. Something like that is more I think what Jesus had in mind.

SPEAKER_02

35:20 - 35:43

I think so. And even when you think about that, I mean, they trained every one of those volunteers. Every volunteer during the civil rights movement was trained by people who would yell at them, scream at them, attack their dignity. That's how they trained. They didn't just say, now, when you go out there, you know, here, let me give you a Bible to read and then you just go out there.

SPEAKER_04

35:43 - 35:45

because they knew how hard it was going to be.

SPEAKER_02

35:45 - 36:55

They put them at these staged lunch counters. Green to them and yelled at them and then on top of that, I was reading in why we can't wait by King. And he talks about the document they had to sign. Oh, really? Before participating in that part. Before they participate. And it was 10 commandments. Oh, really? Interestingly enough, it was 10 commandments. And among those commandments, they said, first they said, I hereby pledge myself, my person and my body to the nonviolent movement. Therefore, I will keep the following 10 commandments. And so among those commandments, are to remember always that the nonviolent movement in Birmingham seeks justice and reconciliation, not victory, which is interesting, that you walk and talk in the manner of love because God is love, but that you sacrifice personal wishes in order that all men might be free. And so they, I mean, they had 10 commandments and then they had to sign it. They said, I sign this, having seriously considered what I do and with the determination and will to persevere.

SPEAKER_05

36:55 - 37:06

Wow. That is 100% Jesus style. Yeah. But as so much wisdom there, it requires training. It's like retraining our instinct. Yeah. Because that is not intuitive.

SPEAKER_02

37:06 - 37:32

Well, I'm curious what does this response do for the perpetrator? Because Jesus doesn't seem to give us instruction just for our benefit. Like, what is it that this particular behavior, this creative nonviolent behavior? What does it do for the person that has been the bully has been perpetrating?

SPEAKER_05

37:32 - 38:44

Yeah, that's excellent. I've wondered the same too, and it's almost like these three examples we've probably done one. Doesn't spell it out completely, but this saying is followed by the sixth and final case study, which is about loving and blessing your enemies. which surely they're next to each other because who else would be slapping you and suing you and forcing you to go next for a mile it would be your enemy somewhere the feels like your enemy so it's almost like you get the the first response of what not to do not to resist in kind and then the last saying Just the next case study comes alongside with the hope is a relationship of love and blessing. It's changing the game. The response is one that scrambles the system so that it just doesn't acknowledge the system of value, honor, injustice that these practices uphold. That's step one. Step one is naming what's wrong. Yeah. And then step two is moving towards the offender in a bid for a different kind of relationship.

SPEAKER_02

38:44 - 38:54

That doesn't negate you leaving a person to justice, right? Right. I can watch you go to prison if I need to watch you go to prison.

SPEAKER_04

38:54 - 38:59

There was three of the tankmen was you read. What was the third one? There's one you read something for all.

SPEAKER_02

38:59 - 39:04

Oh, yeah, yeah. Sacrifice personal wishes in order that all men might be free.

SPEAKER_04

39:04 - 39:16

And what I hear him saying, we're the ones not free. But let's do this in a way that we all can enjoy freedom. Like what I want for my enemy is freedom too, which is such a radical way to think.

SPEAKER_02

39:17 - 39:23

And what does that look like? Because the truth is that the bully is the least free person to throw it. The truth.

SPEAKER_05

39:23 - 40:24

Yep, it's exactly right. They're trapped. Whatever mindset or social system that makes them think that they need to behave like this to have their own dignity or maintain order or whatever, which is its own kind of different kind of prison. The second example explores the same dynamics just from a different angle. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. So there's no way this will land the way Jesus meant it in our cultural setting. I have lots of shirts and I actually have a coat for each season of the year.

SPEAKER_02

40:26 - 40:32

So, it's like, tell me, give them your shoes. Shoes I got.

SPEAKER_05

40:32 - 41:16

I'll give you a half a dozen fair. So, standard dress in GSA's day, you basically have two garments and you probably just have one pair of each. If you're wealthy, you have a handful of each. Most people in GSA's class below would have been. You got one set. So you have your tunic, which is called ketone in Greek or ketone in Hebrew. And that's like it's next to your skin. That's the shirt. That's your shirt. That's the shirt. Yep. Whereas your outer garment, what we would call the coat is like heavier thicker. That's like keeps you warm. Keeps up the elements. That kind of thing. So they're thicker. They're made of wool. They're sturdy. You want to last a long, long, long, long time.

SPEAKER_04

41:16 - 41:20

Which means they're valuable. And they're essential if it's cold out.

SPEAKER_05

41:20 - 42:33

Yes. Which it often was in Galilee, especially in the other than summer. Spring is cold night. So that's one piece. It's assumed closing knowledge. The other piece is notice Jesus assumes this is the legal case. Somebody's suing you. Okay. Now, what he's appealing to is actually a network of laws in the Torah again, laws that are aimed to prevent exploitation of poor and day laborers, especially that if somebody owes you money and all they have anymore, The most valuable thing they own is their outer cloak. You can take that as a pledge of them paying you back, but you have to give it back every night. Oh, it's their blanket. Yep, sex is 22. If you ever take your neighbor's cloak as a pledge for that, return it to him before the sunset. That's his only covering. It's for his body. So the laws of the Torah are about somebody suing and taking a cloak. Don't ever do that. So the picture he's painting is of somebody suing you and taking, not your cloak, your outer coat, but your shirt. Like the thing next to your body.

SPEAKER_04

42:33 - 42:34

And all you'll have left is your cloak.

SPEAKER_05

42:34 - 42:41

All you have left is your clothes, your itchy clothes. In other words, it's kind of comic. It's like, who would do that?

SPEAKER_04

42:42 - 42:44

I can't take your cloak, but I'm gonna take your shirt.

SPEAKER_02

42:44 - 42:47

Yeah, that's the thing. I'm gonna take what I can take. I'm gonna take the shirt.

SPEAKER_05

42:47 - 42:49

So whoever is doing this.

SPEAKER_04

42:49 - 42:50

It's a screaming bed.

SPEAKER_05

42:50 - 43:18

It's a law. It's a wrongful suit. So if somebody is so, if somebody's in that space where they think that's what they need to do, then see him one more to use a poker phrase, give him your coat. And notice what Jesus is recommending here is that you end up handing over all of your clothes, which means you're standing there in public naked. When this person holding all your clothes.

SPEAKER_04

43:18 - 43:22

And that's a public demonstration. Yes. Because you're going to cause it.

SPEAKER_02

43:22 - 43:23

It's a public shaming.

SPEAKER_04

43:23 - 43:43

It's, yeah. You are. You are going to feel ashamed publicly. But publicly, you're also causing a scene, which is in a draw attention to, like, look at this injustice that's happening. Yeah. I'm putting myself in a situation where I'm exposing now the injustice. It's going to be uncomfortable for me. But now, I'm also exposing me. It just says, is that kind of what I'm supposed to be saying?

SPEAKER_05

43:43 - 44:05

Seems like what Jesus is saying is, go for shock value. Draw attention. If they're going to take your tunic, then kindly offer to them. They're not demanding. Hmm. Here. Dear friend. Yes. He had it to him. You clearly need my stuff more than I do. Hmm. Have this, too.

SPEAKER_02

44:06 - 44:27

Any of it are they trying to hide like are they trying to like take your shirt, but not your coat so that nobody knows just how evil they actually are. And then you go the the torus. Yeah, because I still have the coat on me, but they'll take your shirt, but they'll take for sure. And then you go, you know, it had no since you really do want to see me humiliated. Yeah, let's just go all the way with this. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_05

44:27 - 45:12

And then you're staying there naked. Everybody is watching and that person is holding all of your clothes. So it's a matter of generosity. You're giving them. But it's you're using generosity to subvert the whole system by which they are wrong. So the legal system allows them to do this thing to you and you're exposing it for what it is. but it through generosity you give. It's brilliant to talk about the theory. Sure. But to really to be in a position where this is the option before you and you choose generosity, but also you're trying to shake things up. You're certainly not being a dormant.

SPEAKER_02

45:12 - 45:27

Yeah, but that's not easy. I mean, you're you're standing there and front everybody humiliated in order to extra two. Yeah, you're suffering so that you expose whatever this injustice is.

SPEAKER_04

45:27 - 45:37

Both of these examples have that in common. Yes. You are allowing yourself to suffer in order to stand against in a way that reconciliation could happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

45:37 - 46:37

Though this one does seem you're trying to almost shock the person's conscience who's wronging you. That's not doing nothing. It's not doing nothing, but it is not resisting in kind. But it's not resisting in kind. Respond in a way that you are able in a creative nonviolent way, but don't resist in kind. So the third example, follows in meaning. So if someone forces you to go one mile, offer to go another. So that phrase forced to go is the technical term on grusine, and it's used to describe how Roman soldiers could force Imperial subjects to carry their gear. I mean, it's carried a lot of stuff around. Lots of stuff.

SPEAKER_02

46:37 - 46:38

Sort of long was heavy.

SPEAKER_05

46:38 - 47:18

Totally good. The armor, their packs, all that. This is the word used to describe when Jesus is carrying his cross. And as he was walking up the street, the soldiers forced that guy Simon of Cyrene. Yeah. And when it says they forced him into service, they were using their right as soldiers to just be like, hey you, you know, carry this thing. Carry this thing. But the Roman Empire knew this would be prone towards abuse. assuming it was already a piece of it. I know, but so they put limits and the mile over the million. So they were limited. They were limited on how far they make you be their pack animal.

SPEAKER_04

47:18 - 47:18

That's right.

SPEAKER_05

47:19 - 48:03

So once someone, and I just imagine, just put yourself with your family, you know, and you're, I don't know why I'm thinking of having a picnic. By the sea of Galilee. But whatever, you and a father and his two sons are working, and Roman soldiers come by, and then the soldier just picks the dad out, and he's got teenage sons. and stats, all of a sudden, made to do that. Like, think of the relational dynamics of what a dad now feels, humiliating, or that kind of thing. So that's the feel of this example that he names. Surely he wouldn't name it unless it was something all this listener would be like, yeah, like I know that. I know that.

SPEAKER_04

48:03 - 48:07

Okay. So whoever forces you to the one mile, go with them too.

SPEAKER_05

48:09 - 48:50

So within their power, they can only do one. So notice the subversive generosity move, similar to the giving of the cloak. You offer. So they exerted their power, asserting who they are in the rank and who you are. And then the moment that miles over, generosity can redefine the relationship. So they can treat you like a pack animal for one mile. the moment that Miles done, you have an opportunity to redefine the relationship. You know, usually the kinds of people who offer to carry things for other or like people you care about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

48:50 - 48:55

Or like your friends. Yeah. So it's a special kind of friend too. In fact.

SPEAKER_02

48:57 - 48:59

Yeah, like who do you call when you have to move?

SPEAKER_04

48:59 - 49:02

Right. There's totally.

SPEAKER_05

49:02 - 49:06

Yeah. Whoever has to pick up trouble.

SPEAKER_02

49:06 - 49:12

I call my girlfriends. The girlfriends pack, the guy friends move. Yes. But it is the special friend.

SPEAKER_04

49:12 - 49:24

That will take their Saturday and move boxes for you. Yeah. It's a special friend that if you're hiking and you twist your ankle, we'll like grab your pack and carry your pack. I mean,

SPEAKER_05

49:25 - 49:39

That's, that's a lot. That's a lot. Yep, that's right. Once they're done treating you like an animal, it almost becomes synonymous with bless your enemies. Yeah. Of. Can I give you something?

SPEAKER_04

49:39 - 49:42

I'll go another mile with you. Yeah. And let's talk about your family.

SPEAKER_02

49:43 - 49:58

move from, I'm humiliating you to do what I need you to do, and your response is clearly you need help, clearly you need something, and I'm going to be here for you. You're kind of a jerk, but I'm going to be here for you.

SPEAKER_05

49:58 - 50:24

Yeah. And it's generosity. Yeah. So the first one was the other cheek was about a nonviolent response that forces them to reevaluate the relationship. The second example was the subversive generosity that exposes the system and how it's being abused by someone. And then this feels very personal. It's sort of like, you, you need help.

SPEAKER_02

50:24 - 50:34

I'm now being hospitable. Yeah. I'm now making space for you. I don't know. It's, it's, I'm making space for you in a way, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04

50:34 - 50:41

To go back, though, Michelle, to, you brought up people who are victims who then are being told. Go back into that situation.

SPEAKER_02

50:41 - 50:42

Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_04

50:43 - 51:09

I don't think this is about hang out with unsafe people. No. No. Though it does charge your imagination to begin to imagine what are going to be those moments in my life and they're going to be so rare. But where I can have the bravery and courage to like go the extra mile to try to make an enemy a friend because I know I know I'm safe and I know I can handle it. Yeah. Like that seems to be.

SPEAKER_05

51:09 - 52:03

That's it. The assumed context for all of this. is a subjugated, ethnic religious minority group before an imperial power. That's the setting, all of these sayings, right, have that as the context. And so there wasn't any hope of changing the system overall. The point is, how can we respond in a way that reflects the justice and generosity of God that exposes injustice? And then also can affect change, but on like the level of real change, which is relationship. Somebody who has been the victim of an abuser, time and time again. This is not what Jesus is talking about in the same type of context. A lot of it has to do with what kind of context is assumed that we would apply these words in.

SPEAKER_02

52:03 - 52:51

Yeah, and I think there's something about it being treated as literal, treated as well. It can just kind of move over to 2024 again. No. Yeah, what's the wisdom ethic? Yeah, we have laws for this. Yeah. Yeah, laws about this. And so, no, it's not okay for you to just like, you know, use me as a punching bag and I'm supposed to turn the other cheek. That makes no sense. However, I can actually forgive you, which is the, I think, equivalent of turning the other cheek, of walking another mile, of giving you my cloak, because in all three instances, I'm saying, I could get you back. I should get you back. I choose not to get you back. If this is wisdom,

SPEAKER_04

52:53 - 53:45

and deep underneath of it is a posture of forgiveness. I love that point of that out. What is a creative nonviolet response in any other given situation? Because it's not going to be the three he gives. These are very specific Jesus' time place. So I guess this is really interesting exercise. I don't think we do now. But if you have a friend come to you and they're like, I'm an abusive situation. Well, yeah, get out of that situation. But what's a creative, non-retrobutive kind of way to respond to that person? Yeah. And it's going to be so unique for every single person. Mm-hmm. Does it mean writing a letter? Does it mean giving them back something that they find personal? What's the creative, non-violent posture that communicates to that person? I'm not going to put up with it, but I'm not going to treat you in kind. And that seems like the wisdom.

SPEAKER_05

53:45 - 54:24

Well, sad. Yeah, that's exactly right. Just to comment on one aspect of that, the goal of the shock value, you know, of some of these examples, probably just knowing the heart of Jesus that's displayed in these teachings. It isn't just to make the person feel humiliated as such, but it is to expose and to name and to show trusting that eventually at some point, the perpetrator themselves could come to see that they're just as trapped, right? As you were talking about earlier, Michelle, and it is love. It is love.

SPEAKER_02

54:24 - 55:10

It makes me think about a time when I had somebody mistreat me. my instinct was to just blow their hair back, just get really upset. And I just remember feeling like, just listening for a while. And then I just remember saying to that person, I am going to need you to think better of me. And he said, what do you mean? And I said, I think you walked in with some baggage that I didn't give you. But rather than argue with you about whether or not that's true, I'm going to ask you to think better of me. And it, it changed the whole conversation. You know, instead of fighting back and forth, I just said, I want you to think better of me.

SPEAKER_04

55:11 - 55:30

That phrase is kind of embedded in here a little bit. I want you to think better of me. I'm going to give you opportunity to think better of me and to think differently about this whole game that we're playing. Yeah. And that's such a generous offer. I love that you give us that phrase.

SPEAKER_02

55:32 - 56:11

I remember when I would look at some of those photos from the civil rights movement and you would see these men carrying signs that simply said, I am a man. And it was, I need you to stop looking at me as something less than human. I am a man. And it seems simple and yet if you see that sign and you have been treating that person like they are less than if you've been back handing them Jesus is going these are people made in the image of God with all the dignity that comes with and I need you to get there

SPEAKER_05

56:12 - 57:03

In a way that becomes the bedrock under all of the case studies. All the way back to the beginning relationships, sibling family close community relationships of anger and resentment, male and female sexual desire. feeling the need to manipulate people instead of just treating them as worthy of the truth. It really is how we view the worth of other people that's underneath all of these. And a conviction, in this case, that violent resistance simply will not solve our most intractable entrenched problems in the human story. It cannot. And it's not even just that it can't, but that only generosity can. It seems to be what Jesus is after here.

SPEAKER_02

57:03 - 58:14

It's the light showing up in the dark room. You know, I think about that quote from Martin Luther King and strength to love. And he says, non-violence is a powerful and just weapon, which cuts without wounding and denobles the man who wields it. It's a sword that heals. The ultimate weakness of violent retaliation is that it's a descending spiral, beginning the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence, you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie. Nor establish the truth. Through violence, you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes, returning evil for evil, multiplies evil, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. I love that. Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out. Hate only love can do that. Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend.

SPEAKER_04

58:14 - 58:15

That's powerful.

SPEAKER_02

58:15 - 58:18

How to live like that.

SPEAKER_05

58:18 - 58:22

Yeah. Lord, have mercy upon us.

SPEAKER_04

58:22 - 58:25

All right. Well, thank you, Michelle, for joining us.

SPEAKER_02

58:26 - 58:28

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04

58:28 - 58:30

Hmm. Thank you, Tim, for leading us through.

SPEAKER_05

58:30 - 58:37

Yeah. Out of all of the sayings of Jesus, I'm assuming on the Mount, this one deserves special time and meditation.

SPEAKER_04

58:37 - 58:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

58:38 - 58:43

There's a deep well here. Yeah. Yeah. For me, still too. For all of us.

SPEAKER_04

58:57 - 58:59

That's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_02

58:59 - 59:15

Next week we'll look at the last case study. We already alluded to it as it concludes all these teachings. You have heard it said, you will love your neighbor and you will hate your enemy. And I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

SPEAKER_05

59:15 - 59:30

Listen to remember this is a fraught political social context that Jesus is saying these words in for an occupation by the Roman Empire. What they represent is idolatrous, pagan, empires for over 500 years.

SPEAKER_02

59:30 - 59:37

Bible Project is a non-profit and we exist to experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus.

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59:37 - 59:43

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SPEAKER_02

59:43 - 59:45

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SPEAKER_00

59:45 - 59:49

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SPEAKER_01

59:49 - 59:55

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SPEAKER_00

59:55 - 01:00:09

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SPEAKER_01

01:00:09 - 01:00:23

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01:00:23 - 01:00:27

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01:00:27 - 01:00:30

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01:00:30 - 01:00:36

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SPEAKER_03

01:00:37 - 01:01:20

Hi, this is Cooper here to read the credits. John Collins is the Creative Producer for today's show. Production of today's episode is by Producer Lindsey Ponder, Managing Producer Cooper Pelts, Producer Colin Wilson, Stephanie Tam is our consultant and editor. Tyler Bailey is our audio engineer and editor and he also provided the sound design and mix for today's episode. Frank Garza and Aaron Olson edited this episode. JB Woody does our show notes, Hannah Wu provides the annotations for our app. Original Sermon on the Mount Music is by Richie Cohen and the Bible Project being sung is by Tens. To Macki is our lead scholar and your hosts, John Collins and Michelle Jones.