Transcript for CNLP 643 | George Kamel on How to Effectively Pitch Yourself As a Young Leader, How to Get Noticed and Promoted in Leadership, EQ Tips, and Money Advice for Millennials and Gen Z In the New Housing Reality

And so I think because of that and then me sending over some tactical, here's 20 things I would do for your brand if I started working for you now. You almost have to like pretend that you have the job and that's when they can really start envisioning, oh gosh, this person's legit. They have really good ideas and they're already got they've got skin in the game here. I think that's impressive as a leader or an employer. That's what we all want is that kind of initiative out of a team member. So I think that coupled with the mutual connections really helped at least get me another phone call. And then it's like, how do I ace this phone call? So I was researching everything about Ramsey that I could because I knew on that phone call, I need to know my stuff. If the HR guy thinks, well, he's just looking for a J.O.B. I'm not going to get the job here because we're more than about J.O.Bs at Ramsey. You got to be bought in on the mission. And so that was the next step. And then the next step. And so as I progressed, you know, you get a little more rope and a little more trust.

It's such an honor to be here carry inside of this podcast because I once worked with you on this podcast.

Oh, absolutely. I was kind of a marketing consultant as a side hustle, as I was trying to pay off debt and work through my financial journey and a good friend of mine and co-worker was like, hey, I'll hire you to help out. We're helping authors and entrepreneurs and speakers kind of launch their platforms and books and podcasts on what that sounds awesome. And so one of the first clients that he had was this guy, this Canadian guy, Carrie Newhoff, that was this pastor slash leader ship slash blogger slash podcaster and I remember creating the first ever show notes for your first ever podcast and your first ever book and helping you launch that and look at you now, Carrie, you stand on the shoulders of tiny giants like me, I feel like

That was, I've been here over 10 years now. So I started in 2013 at Ramsey as an intern and that was how I was side hustling my way through debt payoff from 2013 to 15. Wow.

So I came on to help one of our mutual friends, John Acuff. He was one of the original Ramsey personalities back before we even called them that. And I was a big fan of John's work with his blog and stuff questions like. And so I heard he worked for this guy named Dave and I was tweeting at him being like, I want to work with you like hire me. And so I had already graduated from college. So I couldn't do a true internship. It's illegal, apparently. You got to do it for like college credit to be an official internship. And so they found me a temp job because John was like, hey, this guy's got what it takes. I think he should come on. We'll give him this kind of he can kind of intern for me, but then we'll find him a temp job here. So I was a temp in the social media side helping with our tech recruiting hiring developers running that social media side, helping John with his social media. And that was my first full ray at Ramsey. It was kind of my foot in the door until I got a full time role. After the internship was over and we both said, Hey, I like it here. You guys hopefully like me is a full time role. And so I stepped into email marketing as a coordinator full time in 2013. And that was my first salary job.

Man, well, you know, it, I can call him in our friend has a book called The Proximity Principle. And I accidentally followed those principles where you get around the right people who have the right connections. And it was less about my degree. I had a little degree. This communication degree from a tiny private Christian school in Mobile, Alabama. It wasn't my degree that got me there. My intellect or my talent. It was just who I knew plus persistence plus work ethic. And so it started as my roommate Judson got a message from Jeremy Coward. He made a website called like Judson wants to work with Jeremy.com. And it was this amazing pitch to be to work with Jeremy as an intern. So John A. Cough's friends with Jeremy. He sees that and he messages Judson and he's like, hey, on Twitter DM, I need like a hustler guy like you. And so Judson mentioned my name. He didn't tell me any of this happened weeks later. He goes, Oh, yeah, I message they cuff and mention your name. And I was like, you mentioned my name to John A cuff. So I started DMing John. I was like, I think my friend might have mentioned me. I'd love to work with you. Here's my resume. Here's what I could do for you. And so that turned into a phone call with HR to get a foot in the door. And I put my best foot forward with a strategic plan about what we could do to help grow John's social impact. And they saw that kind of hustle and grind out of a 23 year old and let's give him a shot. Wow. So I moved to Nashville from OBL for that internship.

I remember being such a fan of his. And so it started with appreciation for what he did. It was rarely about me and my accolades. Because, seriously, I didn't really have any as a college student. I graduated from a college.

He did get our college. And so that was a connection point. because he had spoken at the college, and so that was one piece of, you know, finding any connective tissue you can to that person that you're trying to reach out to is huge, appreciating them, and then going, here's how I think I can add value to your life versus what can you give to me? Can you mentor me? No, but when you hear those words, you go, oh, this guy's going to suck all my time in energy. Instead, it's, hey, here's how I'm dreaming about adding value to what you're already doing. Tell me about your goals and do those align with what I'm thinking. And so I think because of that and then me sending over some tactical, here's 20 things I would do for your brand if I started working for you now. You almost have to like pretend that you have the job and that's when they can really start envisioning, oh gosh, this person's legit. They have really good ideas and they're already got, they've got skin in the game here. I think that's impressive as a leader or an employer. That's what we all want is that kind of initiative out of a team member. So I think that coupled with the mutual connections really helped at least get me another phone call. And then it's like, how do I ace this phone call? So I was researching everything about Ramsey that I could because I knew on that phone call, I need to know my stuff. If the HR guy Thanks. Well, he's just looking for a J.O.B. I'm not going to get the job here because we're more than about J.O.B. 's at Ramsey. You got to be bought in on the mission. And so that was the next step. And then the next step. And so as I progressed, you know, you get a little more rope and a little more trust. And my goal was just to be, how can I be so faithful in whatever's in front of me and do it with excellence and do it with such a work ethic that nobody could ever look at that and go, that guy's, he doesn't have what it takes. He's lazy.

Yeah, I'm thinking now because I'm sort of in John A. Cove seat, which is so fascinating to go from doing the social media help for the personality to being the personality. So I'm thinking if someone DM me, what you don't want is something super long-winded. I think DM is still a great way to do it. But I do think having a connection point is really good. And so saying, hey, I bought your book or I went through this course that you did or I saw you at on the stage here. That helps me go, oh, this is a real person. This isn't some person a thousand miles away who has no connection point who's pitching me on why they I need to be there, you know, sort of international editor from Malaysia because I get a lot of those carry. I don't know why.

Yes, that's a good team. I think what a back in 2013 that difference was, you know, we didn't have a huge company. We've gone from 300 people to over a thousand. And so there's more procedure and there's more, you know, we have better processes and things. And so I'd probably tell him, hey, apply through the website if you want this role, because a role has to kind of exist already. So you kind of have to know they're already looking for help, which I knew John needed already based on his DMs.

So you showed them, hey, I value what you're doing. Here's a specific thing. I've engaged and interacted with your content. And then here's my ask. Just make it very clear instead of this vague thing. Yeah, and I love that. You said, Hey, would you be in my podcast? Here's the details. Here's some specific dates. I love making things tactical because it's one less brain calorie for that person to burn.

Well, on the cusp of like you were one of the first great kind of leadership. podcast doing these longer form interviews.

Almost three hour episodes at number one here.

Well, I wish I had some grand scheme like I'm going to work my way into an internship and become a personality. I really did not think it was in the cards for me, Carrie. I came from a background of being a musician and I was used to being on stage and even in front of cameras for fun little video, you know, I was going to go into film and be a filmmaker at a college. That was a dream of mine. So I always loved video and even being on camera behind the camera on stage, playing music, entertaining people. That was always something I enjoyed doing, but I never saw it as a career path that I could pursue, where I could just go, yeah, I'm just going to go be a personality. That's easy. And so I was always the guy behind the scenes, helping those people make it happen. even helping speakers and authors like you. I just loved helping people with a great message, communicate it in an interesting and creative way. That was really, to me, I still do that today. I'm just now also the mouthpiece for it, which is cool, but nothing's really changed in that regard. But what changed for me was, I got that email marketing job. I convinced them by buying a book called HTML and CSS. on Amazon. And I read the book and that was sort of my, I could do this job here. I read this book and they gave me a shot. And so at every moment at every next opportunity, I just did whatever it took to learn that skill and then prove to them that I could do it over time. And so that email marketing position turned into another of the first official social media marketer for personalities in 2016. Oh, wow. And you know Ken Coleman from the Catalyst days and now is a Ramsey personality. I had known Ken from the Catalyst days and he had spoken at a previous company I worked for and so I got to know him. I traded him. I filmed his Catalyst video edited it and I traded him for free tickets to the Catalyst in exchange for filming his talk so that he could watch back the tape and learn and grow and use that. So that was my first interaction with Ken little did I know one day he'd be a Ramsey personality here and I would be taking the torch from him to MC and host our live events host a video channel and so that was my first step from normal marketer guy into public figure face for the company.

Yes, so the situation was Ken was looking to move into this personality role. He had this message about work and career that he wanted to pursue at Ramsey, but there was a problem. We needed someone to replace Ken. And if you've ever seen Ken Coleman on stage, hosting catalyst, hosting podcast, he is so good at that role and hosting an MCing to just a Phil Ken shoes is difficult. And so we do this event every year at Ramsey called Battle of the Bands. And it is what you think it is. our team members form musical bands and do cover songs and then we all vote for winners and it's this big rock and roll show. And so I was in these in these in the competition for years, Carrie three times in a row did not win with my bands. And so I was tired of losing number one and the hosting truly was a bismal at the time. It was any warm body in the company could get up there and try to make a transition between the bands. And it was so cringy and I just thought, man, I think I could do that and do it better. Not out of a place of ego, but just out of like, I could add value to this event, this event that I love and care about. I have the music background. It'll be fun to poke fun at the bands in a lightweight and carry the show. And so I raised my hand multiple times with persistence until they finally went, okay, sure, you can host next year. And so I put my all into that. We made creative videos. We did musical parodies. We did competitions and game show type things to really bring a whole new element to this show. And they saw me on stage. And I think that was a light bulb moment where Ken and a few of the leaders went, hmm. What if that guy hosted our live events? He believes in this place. He loves the mission. He loves the people. He represents us well. Let's give him a shot. And so that's when I got tapped on the shoulder and I about fell out of my chair because my leader came to me and said, Hey, we're going to this marketing conference and say in Diego, but I need you to take notes as if it's for someone else. And I was like, what? He's like, it's going to be for someone else because you're going to backfill Ken Coleman. I literally thought there was talking to someone behind me. I was like, you're talking to me. Like, I'm gonna be the guy to go on stage and do the video channel. And then what, yeah, we think you can do this. And so having a leader that believes in you is one of the most powerful things in the world. Like a good manager is fine. A good leader helps you become better at life and sees things in you that maybe you don't even see in you. And so that was such a huge transitional moment in my life. And early 2017 to start to get trained up to take on that role.

Yeah, that's a great point. And I think you're right. I tend to just take things too far as far as like what we could do and I tend to break the rules and push the envelope and all of that stuff, not out of a wanting to rebel, but instead it's a vision of what could be. And my goal on that stage was what is going to get the laugh? It was a true sort of comedians' heart of what's going to get the laugh, what's going to connect with this audience and what's going to create a moment. And so through that process, I would tap people on the shoulder that I trust in and say, hey, your designer, can you help me design this slide? It's going to be a really funny thing. Hey, video guy, can you just help me like during lunch and make this video? I have this idea that I think could be really funny. So what we would do is take these kind of zeitgeist of Ramsey as a whole and said, what are the things that we all know to be true, but no one is sort of saying out loud, that will be funny without offending, you know, HR. I don't want to be in the HR office, being like, you can't say that. But what is just over the line that we all know to be true? And so there was always those kind of moments where I'm quick to make fun of myself, which I think gives me the awards me the ability to make fun of others too. I'm sort of an equal opportunity offender there. And so I always love that self-deprecation, but also not taking ourselves too seriously. And so it became parody ad videos. We would do fake sponsors. And so I would make these fake sponsorship videos of today's video is brought to you by and it would be some internal thing that we all have this sort of awareness of. that always got a laugh out of the crew. And we made up a amusement park called Ramsey land. We were building this new building. I said, hey, they're going to actually put an amusement park. It's called Ramsey land. Here's some of the rides and all of the rides had to do with funny internal things like procurement. We all know the procurement team. They're very methodical, but goodness, they can move slow. So we called it the procurement plunge. And we kind of had this pipe analogy. And I was like, sometimes stuff gets stuck in the pipes over in procurement. And, you know, so there's just funny in really inside baseball stuff that no one would find funny except for the people at Ramsey. But all of that kind of elevated the whole experience to where people didn't just look forward to the bands, they look forward to the hosting and what the comedic bits were going to be and the stuff that I was going to make fun of from the year past. And so it just became outrageous and over the top. And I think that made me want to up the anti every year. So one year, I rode in on a camel. I was dressed as Aladdin. It was the year that COVID happened. And so we made a whole video about how my one wish is that battle of the bands could still happen during COVID. And so we did it outside. We hired a camel. I got on top of the camel. It played Prince Ali as I rode in. And it was just these like, what could just be a moment? And so that's how I've always treated everything. How can I take it to the next level? How can I make this more creative and connect with people on a deep level?

Yes, that was the difficult part, Kerry, truthfully. It became so every year, the most stressful thing was battle of the bands because I knew how much of my life I would have to pour into this and how many extra hours I would have to pour into it. But it was also a joy. And you know, you've had those things where you're like, I'm willing to spend four nights this week working on this. So that would really, it became, it just got to the point where I couldn't do anymore. Once I stepped into all the other hosting roles and personality roles, it just became too much to where I had to finally let go and delegate it. But it's still one of my favorite events we do all year. And I try to make a cameo when I can.

So that became this, you know, once you, I got tapped on the shoulder and they said, hey, you're going to backfill. I was doing an hybrid email and social role for our friend, Christy Wright with her business boutique brand at the time. And so that became a transition plan of, okay, we need someone to backfill George now. And then we need George to step into Ken's role. And so became this hybrid where you're still doing your full time job while training for the next one. And if you've ever been in that season, a lot of leaders are working multiple jobs and they know this life well, but that was a difficult season. It's a scary season because you have a lot to prove. You know, when someone says, I believe in you now, it's like, oh crap, they believe in me. You know, there's the moment of, wow, that's so special. And then there's the, oh gosh, I got a really step into this well. And so I started preparing for my first ever hosting of an event. And so I would be in the conference center and our old conference center. There would be seven people in the audience from our team kind of watching me audition for this as I was introducing a fake speaker to the stage and doing a fake introduction and transition and closed for the event and sponsor pitch. And, you know, it's almost embarrassing to do that with seven people in the crowd. You feel like a crazy person. But that's what it took to get the chops just to get to that point. And my first ever event, I thought they were going to put me in front of like 50 people. Carrie, it was 5,000 people. You know, this huge church in Orlando with Dave Ramsey, big money event. And that was my first, it was kind of an audition gig. It was basically like, hey, if this goes well, you got the job. And I remember I walked on stage right before we started and Dave Ramsey walks up to me. And the first thing he does is he unfurls my collar of my suit jacket, which is just all mangled up and I very unprofessional. And he's just helping me out like a dad who's kind of disappointed. just, you know, but very, it was a very sweet moment. And I was like, oh, gosh, I need this night to go well. And truthfully looking back if you watch the tape, it is embarrassing, but it was enough to get the job. And I've gotten better since then, hopefully, as I then hosted another 100 events over four years at Ramsey.

Yeah, even that transition, like we've talked about before, it was one opportunity, and I just tried to make that, make the most of that. And so my first real opportunity was hosting our borrowed future podcast series. I had this dream of, hey, Ramsey needs to get like we do call our driven shows. What if we did a narrative podcast that really dove deep into a topic? And so we had this kind of student loan crisis that we were looking into. And I auditioned again to sort of be the host, because I had hosted stuff on stage. Never had done a real podcast for us.

We had the, I'm trying to remember, yes, we had this idea of the narrative podcast and then it was perfectly aligned with Anthony O'Neill, our friend was doing this book called Death Free Degree. And so we're like, this is great. It's going to all line up at the same time. And so I was one of the people to audition to host it. And I guess I won the audition. And so I did a test and they went, yeah, I think he could carry this podcast. And so I was not a personality for the podcast. I just sort of carried along with all the narrative pieces and transition pieces. And again, it was long nights and weekends working on that podcast because I wanted it to be excellent. And that turned into hosting our Ramsey Education curriculum for the students out there. Our personal finance curriculum is now 48% of high schools. So I got to host that and bring a lot of humor to those scripts. And it was, I think over like 130 scripts or something wild just for all of the transitional pieces and elements and things that were needed for that. So I put my whole soul into that. Then there was the fine print podcast where I wanted to dive deep into all of the financial system that is designed to keep you broke. And at the time of that launch, they had knighted me personality over the summer of 2021. And so it wasn't just the fine print. It was the fine print with George Campbell for the very first time. My name was attached to something as the personality. And it wasn't because of just the opportunities that I seized with excellence. It was also because I had diligently followed the Ramsey principles. I had diligently created content that connected with our tribe in new and fun ways. You know, you know, my wife and I, Whitney, and we followed the principles. We paid off our house on our early 30s and we've been preaching this debt free lifestyle for so long that it almost became, it wasn't really a decision. They just had to relent and go like, okay, he's a personality. Let's just call it what? Like there was probably some leaders carrying the building who were like, just they gave up. They gave in and just went, let him do it. And I think that level of persistence and excellence over time and relational, emotional intelligence and relational equity I had built with so many people on this team. All of that plus God is what helped me step into this role, you know, eight, nine, ten years into this place. And so it's been an amazing journey. And I truly am so grateful and humbled by every step of the way.

Well, you know, and you know this, Cara, you talk about this a lot in your recent books and burn out like there were times and seasons, especially in book writing that crush me. I mean, times where it's like my wife is not a fan of she loves me, but she does not like me right now. Because of my lack of time management, which I've, I need to, I have learned from you. I need to implement more from you carry on that in that regard. You're so good at that. And I've told you, when you came to speak it to our Ramsey team, you hit me square in the face with your great talk on that. But that's been a real challenge for me this past year, stepping into fatherhood. And now becoming an author and you know what it takes to write a book. And so it was nights and weekends and sorry, I'm too focused or too frazzled to help with this thing or go do that thing or do that social obligation. And so that's been a really tough challenge for us. And now being on the other side, we're very grateful. And my wife now sees the fruits of all the work that was put into that. But that's been kind of the new challenge for me is not what's the next thing in next book. And I want to go do this now. It's how do I just be present? How do I be content? How do I slow down instead of how do I speed up? Because both in our financial goals, in our career goals, everything was just what's the next thing. Okay, what's the next thing? All right, we're going to do this. Then we're going to pay off the house. Then we're going to end my, it was just a little productive list of productivity. And I've realized I'm not good at rest. I don't know how to say no. And so that this is the new chapter I'm in now into Fatherhood where I'm like, I just need to put my phone down and stare into my daughter's eyes for an hour and just play with her. And that's not productive, but it's exactly what we both need in this moment. And that's truly been the biggest challenge for me stepping into 2024 is just learning to slow down after a crazy time.

Ooh, that's a great question. You know, I, my personality, the way I'm wired, I'm in any gram too. And all I want is to have people like me. And to be, you know, a door to and not be rejected. And so that for a long time, that was the ambition behind. That was sort of the mask behind wanting to entertain and get the laugh. It was, listen, I'm not the tallest guy in the room. I'm not the smartest or best looking guy in the room. But if I can try to make someone laugh, I can get them to like me. And so for a long time growing up, you know, since I was eight years old, that's what you, you know, these patterns show up in life later on. And so now I'm realizing, and I'm hopefully maturing away from the wrong motive of, I just want them to like me. And instead it's, how can I just add value? How can I bring this person a moment of joy without really any motive behind it? I don't care if they like me or not. I just want to serve because I'm wired to serve. That's what I've been trying to move into. There's probably unhealthy moments in certain scenarios where you don't do it for the right reason, but I found that I get the most joy at most energy and least resentment when I do it for those reasons alone of just going, there's no ulterior motive here. And so that's been a learning curve for me. But behind the ambition now, it's become more than me. You know, as you get married, as you become a dad, as you realize that, you know, life is short and family has health problems. You sort of have those, those realization moments where you go, okay, we've done, we've done the thing. We have a great career. We have the money now. What else? And as I talk to finance creators, Carrie, I'm in that space. I'm realizing the question that has been coming up for me in my mind for those people and for myself is, and then what? If, right, like that's such a crazy question to ask is you make a million dollars and then what? You have the vacation home and then what? Because what I've realized is it's never enough for those people. The scoreboard is always moving. The goal post is always shifting a little bit because once you have 10 million, you go, what's it going to take to get the 20 million? What would that do? And I've realized that there's not much underneath all of that. And that has sort of shaken me to my core. And it makes me thank God that I know him and that I'm a believer because I think a faith underpinning is so crucial to helping ground you to where you don't just float off into space with that mentality of, you know, what's more? What is more even mean? One is enough enough and then what? And so that's the question I've been asking for myself lately and other people.

Well, I think if you go deep enough, it becomes pretty existential. And you start to go like, what is the meaning of life, Carrie? And what am I on this earth to do? And what will have made me look back at my life and go like that was a life well spent, well done, faithful servant. And so it begs those deeper questions, which I think is important. You know, when you start to think about legacy and now that I'm a dad and what am I going to leave in this kid and to this kid? Like those are real questions now that were just hypothetical six months ago. And so I truly think the work I've done, you know, the impact I just want to create a ripple effect, I think is my goal. I'm okay being forgotten because I know, you know, a hundred years from now, how many people are going to know who I am? How many people are going to know, carry you off? Probably a lot more will know carry you off a hundred years from now. I'm with you on that. But you know, there's going to be 17 million podcasts out there. We'll just be one or two of them. And so it sort of helps ground me and keep me humble to go like, I am worthy and I am loved, but if I was gone today, the world would go on without me. That is a beautiful posture to take, and there's such attention in there of feeling like nobody is put on the start to do what I meant to do, and also I'm replaceable. God could use anyone else to be the vessel. I think that's such a beautiful posture, but also a very troublesome one. We talked about this, you interview Dave and he talked about handing over the Dave Ramsey show and making it the Ramsey show and succession and what that means. And so I'm only 34 and so I hopefully have a lot of time left on this earth. But truly, I just think what's the impact I can have today? Because if I think I'm going to have 40 year impact, it hurt boggles my mind. But I just think, what can I do today that can ever ripple effect into tomorrow, a month from now, a year from now, and you see those stones start to skip, that becomes bigger than you. I think that's a beautiful way to look at life, and I'm trying to do that every day.

Well, that's beautiful. What? And you said a key word there that I want to call out because I think it's what every leader should aspire to and you kept saying, I get to. And so many people out there, it's what I have to. Everything's obligation. Everything is sort of an obstacle to overcome. And you've gotten to a point because of your work ethic over such a, your just diligent, consistent, over a long period of time that you've changed your senses to, I get to. It used to be like, I have to go do that speaking. I have to go meet with that person. And now it's, I get to go do that speaking. I get to do this podcast. And I think that's something that most people aspire to with their finances with their career, you know, and I money as I see it has become an obstacle for most people instead of what I want it to be for them, which is a tool. A tool that helps them live a life they're not exhausted by, a life that they always wish they could have lived and give the way they wish they could give. That's the part that people have either lost. They've lost hope that it's possible for them or they don't know how to do it the right way. They don't know what's next and they're sort of paralyzed by it. But I love that at sense of I get to because I think Dave Ramsey would say the same thing. He'd be like, I don't have to do the show. I get to do this. I love doing this. I come in every day and you know, Dave, Dave hasn't had to work in a long, long time. And so the fact that he shows up every day takes three hours of calls, goes to all the meetings, runs a huge company is just mind boggling to me.

Well, I would say that opportunity and success is a lot more about EQ than it is IQ. And too many people, you know, we're getting the seventh degrees in college and they're just in this education vortex. Instead of just getting out there and learning how to connect with people in a real way, instead of in a formulaic transactional way, like we're losing that relational component in our society because of the internet and social media, And at the same time, it's easier to connect with people thanks to the internet and social media. So I think learning how to do that well and add value is the biggest thing. And also there's this concept carry that work is is evil. There's this anti work culture. And I want to be my own boss. And I want to be an entrepreneur and working for the man is evil. And if you're a nine to five or you're not you're never going to build wealth. And I'm here as a nine to five or as a W two employee telling people, you can have a great life. Entrepreneurship is not for everyone. Trust me, there's some people who should not be running their own business. I just want to tell them, it's okay to not jump to the next thing in the next thing every year. It's okay to just plant roots and commit to something that you believe in. And that's what happened at Ramsey. I've been here 10 years. I've had six jobs. I might be the millennial with the longest standing career at one company. I know being your 10 years. Most people, they're jumping ship every three, three months for the next gig that pays $1,000 more. Yeah. And I think one of the reasons I'm here is because of my stick to itiveness, where I went, now I want to stay here for a long time and build relationships. I mean, some people here I've known for a decade or more now and it's been a beautiful thing versus restarting at a new company or a new startup just to make an extra buck. And it's one of the reasons I think I've found the success and joy that I have in my work is because of just that commitment. And so I think you got to you got to commit. You got to persevere. You got to be persistent with the right EQ and do it the right way by adding value to leaders and the people that you look up to. And I can't imagine not being successful. That's a foolproof plan right there. If that doesn't work, DM me and tell me what went wrong.

I think humility is a big part of EQ. If you don't have humility, I think you've already lost. When you come in a room, acting a certain way, acting like you know it all, even if you are a prodigy level genius, you're not going to last in that room long. No one's calling you on the weekend to hang out. So they can tell you all the things that you got wrong or how it could be better. So I think coming at it with humility, with a posture of You know, an attitude that is yes and is also really important. The EQ leaders that I know, they never just shoot things down. They seek to understand. They really want to know where you're coming from. They value your input instead of kind of make it an after thought, which is what happens sometimes. When they do speak, they ask really good questions. They never just speak to speak. I mean, Proverbs talks about this. That's what fools do. They just open their mouths. And so I think having something to say and not feeling like you need to fill air because that's how you stand out. That's a that's a really big one for leaders that I look up to and things that I've been trying to work on. And so I think that's what EQ comes down to. There's a level of humility. There's a level of Openness to ideas. There's a level of caring to where it's not just, hey, did you get that task done? It's, hey, how are the kids doing? How's me doing? I know she had that rash. Has that been healing up? Leaders that do that. You're like, oh my gosh, this person's on another level. Like, we get the business done, but can they also be a person and be a friend? And so, I think those are the best leaders I've seen. They see that opportunity in someone. They see, they believe in those people and they have that posture of humility. They ask great questions and it's more than just about work. And those are the people that I've seen win in the long term. You can win in the short term just by being, you know, rock and roll business and getting the numbers, but you don't survive long term if you don't have those qualities.

Well, as you know, the total money makeover is the 800 pound gorilla in the room when it comes to personal finance books over 10 million copies sold. You know, so it's sort of like the canon has been written. And so that posed me with a great challenge to go like, I'm not going to just write a book about the baby steps. That has been done. What can I bring to the table that is fresh? That's unique. That's going to connect with new audiences. That's going to maybe convince the tribe that has been hanging onto those credit cards for a little longer than they should, even though they mostly follow the day of Ramsey way. And so I needed to do something really fresh. And I thought, what can I bring to the table? And that was this creatively exposing the system. and the villains that are out there for my consumer advocate standpoint and doing it with more research than we've ever done with more humor than we've ever done in a more relevant way than we've ever done really speaking to where people are at having so much empathy that I'm not talking down to you I'm not yelling at you I'm just that snarky friend who's telling you the truth and it's thanks for a second but then you're laughing and we're having we're having a drink talking about what the next step is we're gonna take And so as you know, when you write a book, there's a lot of things you hope for. There's the reviews that you hope come through and like I hope people understand what I'm saying and that it's not taken out of context or this doesn't come across this way. And I'm proud to say the reviews have been pouring in and it has been overwhelming. Not just how positive they are, but people that are 17 years old are latching on saying, thank you for helping me avoid mistakes that could have cost me years of my adulthood. Then someone who's 51 is on the phone in tears drawn on my livestream for the book launch saying, I'm 51. I thought there was no hope for me. Thank you for telling me that it's still possible and showing me a way out. And so I didn't want to write a book for a certain, yes, it's going to connect with Gen Z and Millennials. So if you're, you know, if you don't connect with old bald white guys, no offense, Dave Ramsey, if you're listening. You know, I thought maybe they'll connect with a younger white guy with hair and hipster glasses. And so it's been really encouraging to see people message me saying, Hey, I'm not even three chapters in. I've cut up all of my credit cards. Thank you for showing me how to live without one. Thank you for showing me how to get rid of the student loan or live or go to school without getting one in the first place. And so those kinds of messages give me so much joy and hope that what I wrote on the page is actually connecting in the way I wanted it to.

Well, Kerry, as I started doing research for this, it was amazing how things started with good intentions back in the day. And so I talk about the path that most of us took, which is our parents didn't have it amazing. They wanted a better life for us. So they said, get good grades, get a further education, go to college, go to the one of your dreams for the dream degree and take out as much money as you need to make it happen to fund this operation. On the way, we're told, oh, and by the way, you now need a credit score to live your adult life. And to get the credit score, a best way to do it, open the credit card and just put gas and normal lifestyle stuff on it. So now, we're wrapping up credit card debt hoping to pay it off. We're building our credit score, which involves taking on more debt to get a better score and then playing the game perfectly to get a better score to get more debt, which is insane. Now we're wrapping up student loans. Oh, and by the way, we can't afford the car that we deserve or that we need, or that our parents told us was for safety and reliability. Now we have a car payment stacked on top of that. Then what happens when you graduate? You're like, well, I'm an adult. I'm a college graduate. I need to buy a house. Only poor people rent, carry. So I'm now forced into buying a house, even though I'm broke with no savings, ton of debt, no down payment. But I'll just do one of these first time home buyer programs and put almost nothing down and we'll figure it out later. And so now you're stacked with debt and you're looking at other options to get out of this. So you're looking at helox, which is just more debt tied to your house. You're looking at 401k loans robbing what little retirement you have in order to move debt around and you're looking at debt consolidation and debt relief and debt settlement and everywhere it has to do with debt. And that's when I realized that is a thief. It's stealing from our joy. It's stealing from our paychecks and it's time to stop. And once I actually went through that process, because I'm not here at a mountain top from the tower, I had $40,000 in consumer debt. I had the student loans. I had multiple credit cards thinking I was winning. And it left me broken anxious and cynical toward adulthood. And I was back in 2013, Carrie, right before we met, I was on this journey going, this can't be it. Like this American dream is not it.

I mean, I about had nothing in the bank carry. So it was my debt was it was negative $40,000 and then you can, you know, plus whatever I had in the bank at any given moment, which was probably enough to cover bills and that's it.

You want to sell your degree. I want to send to I can't do that unfortunately wish I could.

Yeah, this one I have a lot of empathy for because it's the one thing people go listen, George, I'm on board. And I can do the no car payment. I'll pay cash, but getting a house, I have to have a credit score. And I thought that way for a long time until it was time for me to buy a house with no credit score. And it was shockingly easy to where I went, oh my gosh, I was I lied to. Why did we perpetuate this myth? And all it took was a process called manual underwriting. And so automated underwriting is how most mortgages are written. And it's you enter in the person's information, the system, it spits out the credit score, and the lender goes, OK, we can do this. The risk is not enough to warn us, saying no, given the loan. With manual underwriting, it takes a real person looking your tax returns and your utility bills and going, this person has the income to support this. They have a low debt to income ratio and they pay bills on time. So it really was not rocket science to get approved and it really didn't take that long and it didn't cost me more. That's another myth that it's going to cost you way more. I did a 15 year fixed rate mortgage. We had over 20% down and they gave me a great rate back in 2019 when we got our mortgage without a credit score. And so I'm here to tell you, I'm not the only one. This isn't like a weird one off situation because I'm the Ramsey guy. They didn't know or care. And many, many people have done this without a credit score and survived to tell the tale. So that's one of the biggest myths out there. And I've rented cars. I've rented hotels. I've done all kinds of things without a credit score. I have great insurance rates. And so all this mythology, I break it down in the book and I tell people how to live without it with step-by-step plans for every single piece because I was just tired of all the objections. I went, listen, you can't argue with me after this.

That was the strategy. My wife and I pre-decided by asking some revolutionary questions. Like, what could we do if we didn't have a house payment in our early 30s? Like, what could that make possible? What kind of options would we have? And so that was our really our driver. And we knew we wanted to have kids one day. Now we have a little girl and she's being raised with a totally debt-free household. And it's just a beautiful thing to not have money fights in the house. And instead, we just get to focus on, hey, how do we want to give this month? How do we want to spend this month? Because we have the margin to do that. And so we didn't do it because Dave Ramsey said, I have to pay off my mortgage in 26 months.

Exactly. Yeah, 15 or less he'd be like, all right, you're doing well, my man. And so it was an aggressive goal for us. I know we're weird. And for some people, it's going to take five, 10, 15 years. But it's amazing. When you do a 15 year fixed rate mortgage and it's not too much of your world, you end up paying off that mortgage in 15 years worst case. And you save hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest.

Well, luckily, you know, when you get to that baby step, it's baby step six in the Ramsey plant. And so you're out of debt. You have an emergency fund. We were investing 15% already into retirement accounts. And whatever money was left over every single month, we would just throw at the house. And it was really simple. We didn't follow any of these like TikTok strategies about how to pay it off early. We just literally paid extra on the principle along with our normal mortgage payment. And we set a goal every month. So maybe it was, hey, this month, we're going to try to put a thousand dollars extra and we're going to try to consistently make that payment. And if we can put a 1500 extra the next month, that's going to be even better. And so watching that come down following a spreadsheet, showing us how much less interest we're paying, how much interest we're saving and our debt pay off goal speeding up, super encouraging. Yeah. And we've seen that. I'm not that special now. We're seeing debt free screams carry from people in their 20s and 30s who are just living on less than I make living modestly still enjoying life going on vacations and paying off their house early because they saw their parents struggle into their 60s hanging on to the mortgage and the he lock in the second mortgage and they're going, I don't want to live with that kind of stress.

I know in Canada, too. It's a tough thing. I mean, the numbers are very different in Canada. And so I feel, because we're starting to get more calls from Canada, Kerry. God bless you. I don't know what's happening over there, but we need you.

Man, well, I know it's tough, especially for like when I see the Canadian numbers, it truly hurts my heart. And it's even harder out there than in America. But you know, I have a whole section in the home in the mortgages chapter on this because I have such empathy for that person. I want to speak directly to them and say, Hey, I know you're a hopeful homeowner. And I know it feels more hopeless than ever. And here's the numbers. I'm not trying to downplay it. It's harder than when our parents got a house. And I know this is not a hate on boomers because houses were cheap and they walked up hill both ways. I understand they had a hard life too, but the numbers are astounding as far as how fast homes have appreciated and value versus how quickly our incomes have appreciated and value. So there is one good thing that we can control our income. We can control house prices, but if you're making 30,000, you might be able to get a side hustle and up at the 60 or switch career paths entirely. Or maybe you'll be married soon. And you'll have dual incomes. How amazing would that be? And so where you are right now is not where you might be three to five years from now. Your income is going to go up. You may get married and have dual incomes. You can always adjust your expectations. Yes, you might need to go further outside of the city. It's going to be a half hour commute. And you can afford the condo or town home that doesn't have all the features you want. But get in the game when you financially can. And what that means is You're out of debt. You have an emergency fund now or diligently saving up that down payment to where we can get this house the right way. And what I'm seeing carry is people getting freaked out and they're jumping into houses they can't afford taking on a half million dollar mortgage because I'll never be able to buy. Well, now they're calling the show saying, should I sell? Because I'm so stressed out, I can't pay all the bills. I still have debt. I can't say for the future. And I'm going, this house was supposed to be a blessing and it's become a real burden. And so it's not worth your piece or your patience to jump in a house before you're ready. Even if it means it's a 10 year journey for you.

Oh man, you're your spot on here. I mean, I have a lot of empathy for those people because HGTV ruined us and thanks, Chip and Joe and I were making us expect way too much. Our standard of living is increased. I mean, we all now need an iPhone every two years. Yes. We need the newest iPhone because it doesn't And so you just think about that alone plus we can't live in the old, you know, the nasty old shiny wood grain walls. We need updated, you know, we need a static carry. We need to have a piece of environment and a nice environment. And I'm not shaming people for having that standard of living, but you got to understand where your parents are at today could take you 20 to 30 years to get to.

That's a hard one to do. And you're right, social media has made it worse because back in the day, you only knew what your neighbor was driving. And now on Instagram, I know where Carrie's been last weekend. And you just hear the grill. He's got that nice big green egg. And he was just in Cabo and oh my gosh, how is he affording that? Are they deeply in debt? Are they doing really well? And it's this comparison culture that we live in. And you know, your inputs really matter. Those social media inputs, whatever you're watching, listening to, comparing your life to, it's never healthy. No one has ever looked at someone else's life, because here's one thing. You'll either go, and I think Craig will show us a great quote on this. It'll either make you feel superior or inferior. That's the problem with comparison. See, we either go, wow, we're not doing as bad as Carrie, or, man, it's not fair they're doing so well. I mean, isn't he like a pastor? You know, there's all these kinds of questions that bubble up that really just point to our own human ugliness and selfishness. So it's hard. I'm not going to say it's easy to turn down those inputs and turn off the comparisons, but I will say your life is so much better when you don't care where other people think. That is a superpower in today's world to not have that be a part of your day-to-day of comparing your life to others. And I think it's really hard to get to. That takes a real place of maturity and wisdom to be okay driving the crappy car because you're working on paying off the debt. And your friends are going to give you crap for it. And you either find new friends or you tell them, you laugh it off and go, yeah, I'm doing this Ramsey plan. Make fun of me all you want, but I got no payments. You know, that's the real flex, I think, as we as these generations come up, the new flex is going to be I got no payments. And right now, the flex is, look at all the stuff I have, even if it means I'm secretly drowning in debt and stress. That's the problem. We're not mad at nice stuff. When we say rice and beans, people think we mean forever. No, the quote is, live like no one else. So later, you can live and give like no one else. Sacrifice now. So you can have a big, beautiful tomorrow down the road. And so the Ramsey plant is two years of sacrifice so we can have the next 30 years of peace and no payments and options and margin and meaning and joy. And that part has been misconstrued. And I think delay gratification is at the core of that. And if My generation, if older generations, younger generations, if we could all grasp that concept of delayed gratification, we would be in a much better place, emotionally and financially.

Well, I open the book with a great CS Lewis quote that I think sums it up and it's all about swimming upstream. Um, I think I have that you have the book behind.

Oh, in the introduction.

That sums it up right there. I feel like a crazy person in today's world carry posting on social media saying, Hey, guys, the credit card companies are not your friend. You should cut them up and stick to using your own money and paying now. And they're all like, kill him. No. coming after our credit cards. I mean, I'm like, you would think I'm coming after there are freedoms as Americans carry. And so the aggressiveness toward, you know, just becoming sheep and just wanting to, you know, be blessed by these debt companies is outrageous to me. And so when I tell people to live counterculturally and, you know, which I feel like is what the Bible calls us to with our life. And part of that is where their money is to go against the grain and be transformed. And so a big part of that is going, is this system really blessing my life? Is it going to allow me to make the kingdom impact I want to make by being overled by playing this game, by having payments? And I found in every scenario, every situation, nobody's ever been blessed by having to pay monthly payments. And this happens with personal finances. It happens with churches. You know, my church that I go to, they acquired $7 million in debt as they merged with another church and they decided, hey, we're paying a million dollars to a lender every year with the payment and interest. What could we do with an extra million dollars if we didn't have this payment? and they they challenged the congregation and some of the leaders and they went we're gonna pay this thing off and carry they did it in a year they paid off seven million dollars in a year and now the church has so much margin and options are creating ministries for foster care families are creating automotive repair shops for single moms to gift them new cars and They have a wraparound ministries for addiction and there's all these amazing things that we're able to do because we don't have debt. And so even in the faith space, the leadership space, the personal finance space, it just gives you more margin and options and peace when you don't owe anyone money. And so the book is there to convince you that number one, it's possible for you, regardless of your age. The number two, you can rise above the broken system. And number three, that your life's going to be so much better because of it, regardless of what culture is telling you.

Well, I'd say a few simple things and it may sound right coming from a 34 year old, but, you know, people call us from all over the world and they trust us with their questions regardless of my age and experience and background, but after helping many people in the air, here's what I found resonates the most. Number one, I tell them it's not all your fault, but it's your responsibility. And the sooner we can drop the victim mentality and the victim baggage and pick up this victim mentality that I believe God has instilled in each one of us, the sooner we can have that freedom. And number two, it's not too late. Your past and your mistakes and your age and while I'm close to retirement, I haven't saved anything. Well, the best time to plant the tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is today. And so what are we going to do today instead of wallowing in shame and regret and baggage and mistakes? Because we've all been there. If you're over 12, that makes you an adult who's made some money mistakes. And so it's okay, but you can't just keep beating yourself up and said, you got to go, what's the right next step? So it's not all your fault. It's your responsibility. It's not too late. And there is hope for you yet. And I know that because I've seen it. I see the 60 year old call in and say, we just got a hold of this plan of 55. My husband and I have paid off our mortgage and we're going to be able to retire with dignity now. Thanks to you guys. And we say, we didn't do, you did the hard work, not us. We're not the heroes. And so it's a beautiful reminder of the agency and autonomy we have over our financial destiny and what is possible when we truly are willing to transform. When we're truly that we want to have that paradigm shift, we're going to believe something different about ourselves in the world. We're going to act differently. That gives you this magical thing called hope. And I think it's what the world is begging for right now.

Absolutely. Well, I'm always hanging out on Instagram at George Campbell. That's K-A-M-E-L, like the animal, love connecting with folks on there, especially your amazing listeners. I have a deep affinity for your show in particular, Kerry, and your listeners. They're amazing leaders out there, and you've been doing such a great job. And if they want to check out the book, it's in bookstores as well, RamseySolutions.com, and we even made it to Canada, Kerry. I'm proud to say people are hosting pictures from Indigo. Bookstores saying, hey, I got the book. It's on the shelf and so the principles will apply then the actual scenarios and data points may be a little different but I think the heart of the message will still resonate regardless of where you live in the world and it's been so fun launching this thing and truly it's the Dave's generosity of his platform that he's built and given to us so freely so it's been a fun ride.

Thank you, Cara. You've been a great friend, and I've always believed in you from day one. I went, this guy is going somewhere. And look at you now.