Transcript for Jacob 5-7 Part 2 • Dr. Matthew L. Bowen • April 8 - April 14 • Come Follow Me
SPEAKER_00
00:01 - 00:05
Welcome to Part 2 with Dr. Matthew Bowen. Jacob chapters 5 through 7.
SPEAKER_02
00:07 - 00:51
So Matt, the second section, 15 through 28, if I'm looking at this chart that John showed us in the manual, it's the time of Christ. I've got lots of good fruit, even the wild fruit is becoming good. You've got the Nephites of the Laminites, verse 25, part of the tree is good, part of the tree is bad. But I wanted to ask you about one part of this. Verse 21, the servant says, why did you put this particular tree in this terrible spot? He said, that's the poor spot and all the vineyards and the larger spots with. Council me not. I knew that it was a poor spot of ground. I like that. Council me not. I knew. What do you seem there?
SPEAKER_01
00:51 - 03:52
Well, first of all, we wouldn't want to take a hard and fast stance on which parts of the world are poor spots of ground. But there are definitely spots that we might individually think, hey, this is not a Good spot of ground. I've had to struggle my entire life. At BYU Hawaii, we have students in great proportions from just about everywhere in the world. And one of the things that is really striking to me is that almost every one of them has a story of struggle about how they got to the point where they could come to BYU Hawaii and then they're getting here to BYU Hawaii. It really has hammered home. Could I think a lot about the whole grafting process that is a part of this allegory, right? The Lord has got part of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant was to scatter Israel throughout the entire world. And now we've got Israel everywhere, even in the poor spots of ground. And then the Lord from wherever he's placed them, he'll bring them to LIA here and to help further prepare them for when they get grafted back in wherever the Lord is going to graft them in the future. We ask questions, mortal questions about, well, why is this such a maybe for me? Why is this been such a poor spot of ground? Why have I had to struggle so much in my life where I'm at? But again, you know, verse 22, counsel me not. I knew that it was a poor spot of ground. And we have to sometimes remember the Lord knows what he's doing. He knows and gets back to cuby browns experience. He knows what he wants us to become. He knows what we need to be. As President Nelson has been teaching, we've been so focused on, where am I going to end up with kingdom of my genitalian when really just as important as the issue of kind of person am I becoming? What body am I going to come forth with in the resurrection? That's going to be what we've become. Who are we going to live with in eternity? When we start to think about it in, those kinds of terms, I think it helps us to make better sense of, well, it maybe I was in a core spot of ground where I had struggles or difficulties in my life. The Lord knows how to compensate us for blessings previously denied us. He knows when and how and where to dispense those blessings so that we do become what He intends us to become. And if we'll just open ourselves to that and as President Nelson talks about what God prevailed in what He's trying to do with us, he'll lead us by the hand, he'll answer our prayers, as he did with Abraham and get us where we need to go.
SPEAKER_02
03:52 - 04:05
I'd love it. John, you gave a talk once called Rough Start Great Finish. And that seems to be verse 22 and 23. This was a poor spot of ground, but look, it brought forth much fruit.
SPEAKER_00
04:07 - 04:26
Yeah, the BH Robert story isn't that talk, and it is crazy where he started. He said at one point, I had to beat the dogs to the garbage. He was homeless elementary school kid. This reminds me of second Nephi, 26, 24. He'd do with not anything, save it be for the benefit of the world.
SPEAKER_01
04:26 - 05:03
If we're ever wondering about the Lord's motivations for anything that he does, that's the verse to go to. Because whatever he does, he always does it out of love. He's never motivated by selfish, human types of motivation. It's always divine. Divine love is greater than human love. And divine anger is different than human anger. It's never out of selfishness with him. So what he's grieved in the allegory that's coming from not a selfish place. It's grief for us.
SPEAKER_02
05:03 - 05:15
Speaking of being grieved, Matt, this next section, 29 through, what'd you say, 49, 50, 51? This seems like the low spot.
SPEAKER_01
05:15 - 05:55
Yeah, this is the low point and it even seems like the Lord's ready to give up himself on the whole project. Even though he told the servant not to counsel him earlier, it's verse 50, where the servant says, and you can kind of imagine prophets in this role, but behold, the servant said to the Lord, spare it a little longer. Moses passed a intervene like that a couple of times. You remember Abraham pleading with the Lord on behalf of the people in Sodom, but you wonder how much interceding and pleading Prophets, series and revelators have done on our own behalf to give us more time. Let's spare us a little longer.
SPEAKER_02
05:55 - 06:23
We'll get this done. There's a question that comes up a number of times, John, you probably have got it marked, but I count three. Verse 41, what could I have done more? Verse 49, what could I have done more? Verse 49, what could I have done more? It almost seems like the Lord is saying, look, I gave you the best possible chance. and somehow you grasped defeat out of the jaws of victory.
SPEAKER_00
06:27 - 07:02
Second Nephi 15 or Isaiah 5 is Isaiah's parable of a vineyard there. He says, second Nephi 15 verse 4, what could have been done more to my vineyard that I have not done in it? It's almost the same question. Well, did you use a choice? Well, yeah, I did. Well, did you plan it in a fruitful hill? Yeah, did you take the rocks out? Yeah, I even built a tower in the midst and I think that's called an entrapment parable because he's asking, didn't I do everything in the audience has to go, yeah, you did. And then he says, well, actually, you're the vineyard. That's you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
07:02 - 07:15
It's an entrapment. Purple like the purple of Nathan, you remember. today and then second Samuel 12, he gets them to pass judgment on, they don't realize that they're passing judgment on themselves, but he's getting them to pass judgment on themselves.
SPEAKER_00
07:15 - 07:17
Yeah, that's the, that's the man, right?
SPEAKER_02
07:17 - 07:26
Yeah. So Matt, what do you want us to see in this last section? How is the Lord going to save? What seemed unsavable?
SPEAKER_01
07:26 - 10:19
We're familiar with scriptures where the Lord says he's going to hasten his work in its time and that sort of what happens here at the end there's been a lot of this not succeeding him not getting what he's hoping to get from the natural tree from the branches from wherever they're at in the vineyard. But then he's able to press into service. You start in about verse 52 where they really start to get going again and then he proposes what needs to be done. What kind of graphs need to be carried out. And then I mentioned the again language that they're going to do all these things again. We ought to pick it up in about verse 64 here. We're for dig about them and prune them and dunk them once more. There's our three again for the last time for the endroth die. And if it's so be that these last graphs grow and bring forth natural fruit, then shall you prepare the way for them that they may grow? That's what John the Baptist did before the coming of the Savior. That's what Joseph Smith and every prophet and everyone laboring under the prophets have been doing for the second coming. And as they shall be, again, to grow, you shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size they're of. You shall not clear away the bad all at once, less the roots, there of should be too strong for the graph. And the graph, there of shall perish, and I lose the trees of the vineyards. Sometimes people wonder, why don't we just baptize everybody that wants to be baptized right away? Because there are places in the world where We could, in terms of sheer numbers, we could bring in all at once a lot more than we're doing, but there have to be things in place for us to grow the church the right way. There has to be ability to have organizational structure, priesthood leadership. And a number of things have to be in place in order for healthy growth to take place. There's healthy growth and there's unhealthy growth. But it has to be growth the Lord's way. It can't be helped or shelter in terms of the way that the church and the kingdom grow. But that's true in our own lives as well. Sometimes we like on the individual level growth to happen. We like blessings to happen in floods. but there has to be a healthy pacing to it. We need to all individually and collectively become who and what the Lord needs us to be. That's the goal here. It's not just a random gathering of everybody and it's not just dump all the blessings on us at once and then see if we can make sense of it all and make good on those blessings. They have to come decently and in order and the Lord's way.
SPEAKER_02
10:19 - 10:26
Carefully, deliberately. I noticed in this section, Matt, this is the only time he calls in help.
SPEAKER_01
10:26 - 11:17
Yeah, so he brings in and he tells the servant to go get other servants. Maybe if we could just jump down really quickly to verse 71. And the Lord of the Vineyard said unto them, go to and labor in the vineyard with your might. For behold, this is the last time that I shall nourish my vineyard for the end is nigh at hand and the season speedily comeeth. And if you labor with your might, with me, you shall have joy in the fruit which I shall lay up unto myself against the time which will soon come. This might be an example in the book of Mormon of a literary or linguistic phenomenon called Apocoyneu. And that's where a word or expression is shared by two clauses. So this with me does that belong with if you labor with your might or does the with me here belong with you shall have joy in the fruit, which I shall let up.
SPEAKER_00
11:17 - 11:17
I think it's both.
SPEAKER_02
11:17 - 11:19
Yeah, it's gonna say which direction.
SPEAKER_00
11:19 - 11:20
Love it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
11:20 - 11:34
Yep. If you labor with your might with me, With me, you shall have joy in the fruit, which I shall lay up. One of those beautiful vistas or nuggets within this text that's just sublime.
SPEAKER_02
11:34 - 11:42
That is. I noticed that they call the servants and you're hoping it's going to say they were amazing or they were
SPEAKER_01
11:43 - 12:41
an army but it says they were few were few that's consistent with Nephi's vision you remember when he had the vision of the tree of life he saw that the dominions of the saints upon the face of the earth that they were small because of the wickedness of the great nabammal church but Nephildly also pointed out that they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory. It's never been about the numbers with the Lord. We see when the story of Gideon, he can empower 300 to do what tens of thousands could do. It's not about the numbers with the Lord. It's about having those who are willing to be armed with righteousness. Who keep their covenants so that as President Nelson says they have access to the Lord's power. Because if it doesn't matter, it's not a numbers game. If the servants have access to the Lord's power, they're going to be able to do everything required.
SPEAKER_00
12:42 - 12:55
What you just said about having a joy with me, so if you labor with me, you'll have joy with me. My mind went to the section 18. How great shall be your joy? With them in the kingdom of my father.
SPEAKER_01
12:55 - 12:59
Ooh, that's a really good. With them. With them. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00
12:59 - 13:06
That's really nice. I looked for the footnote, but it wasn't there. I thought they put DNC 18 there. No, it's not there.
SPEAKER_01
13:07 - 13:45
And we should probably not miss the one nest language, which, again, reminds of the Atonement, 68 and 74, the natural fruit shall bring forth the natural fruit and they shall be one, and then as you just pointed out for 74, and they became like unto one body. And the fruits were equals. Oneness, equality. And that should remind us of the temple. We would be uncomfortable if we saw people come into the temple really blinged out. If they were dripping with jewelry, You know, that would detract from what we're trying to do there, but we're all dressed the same in the temple.
SPEAKER_02
13:45 - 13:48
We're of one heart and one mind.
SPEAKER_01
13:48 - 13:58
And the Lord views us equally. And the fruit of the tree of life, she reminded us of the clothing of the temple to the bright clothing.
SPEAKER_02
13:58 - 14:03
It was the 718. They were of one heart, one mind, and there was no poor among them.
SPEAKER_00
14:04 - 14:56
I'm still stuck on verse 21. It's the poorest spot in all the land of the vineyard. Hank, we know that there are people who are in prison that are allowed to listen to this podcast. And just to make an application, they may be thinking, I'm in this poor spot right now. But look what you're doing. Look what the Lord can do. You're listening. You're trying to let God prevail. We get to places sometimes through our own choices, sometimes through others using our agency badly, through chance we're in a poor spot. But God can do things with people in a poor spot that are amazing and miraculous. I just hope anybody who is feeling I'm in a poor spot. Look what the Lord says, Council may not. I got this. I know where you are. I am going to help you bring forth much fruit. So I love that idea there.
SPEAKER_02
14:56 - 15:13
I love that, John, that your verse 74 or 7576, it's coming. You may be on verse 21 right now, but 7576 comes in your particular growth in your vineyard, the Lord knows what he's doing and he's got you.
SPEAKER_01
15:13 - 15:38
And he's never done with us. Sometimes we might feel like, well, I have sin so much or I've passed some arbitrary Sim Lemma, but that's not the story here in Jacob 5. The story here is that the Lord isn't done with us and that he will work with us as long as it takes to get who he wants us to be and to become. That's the story.
SPEAKER_00
15:38 - 15:48
He is so willing to labor in the vineyard failure after failure after failure. He is going to keep working until we get to that verse 74.
SPEAKER_02
15:48 - 16:31
I'm going to get you there. Yeah. I have to tell you both, I remember when I was heading out on a mission. My bishop said, hey, what verse do you want on your plaque? What scripture verse? And I didn't know what to say. I went home and searched a couple of things and thought, oh, this won't work. But if I could do that again, it would be Jacob 572. Came to pass the servants did go and labor with their might, like it's tough. And the Lord of the Vineyard, labored with them. Man, that is such a beautiful idea. And I've noticed I bet both of you would say too. In the work of the Lord, not just in missionary work, but in the work of the Lord, as you look back, you think he's been laboring with me. We're shoulder to shoulder with the Lord of the universe on this.
SPEAKER_00
16:32 - 16:51
What an experience that is. Some people may be in a hunter mission, and some people may be in a fisher mission to use the Jeremiah 1616 language, or maybe you'll find one. Maybe you can throw your net over this side. But he's going to be working with you. That's cool.
SPEAKER_01
16:51 - 17:35
But this might be an appropriate point to bring in second king's sex, Lyshe and the young man to pray that he would open his eyes that there are more with us than they that be with them. That was my father has reminded me of that so many times he'll be listening to this. I am so grateful that he taught me that lesson. There's always more with us than our against us. As Elder Holland has said, those armies ride with reckless speed to aid the seed of Abraham. If we could have the veil parted, we would see that that's true. There are more laboring with us. And even the Lord himself, though we might not see him, that his hand is in it all.
SPEAKER_02
17:35 - 18:07
I can almost see. Verse 75, the Lord almost with tears and his eyes looking at those who did his work. Blessed art thou, because you have been diligent in laboring with me in my vineyard. You've kept my commandments. You've brought forth the natural fruit. You are going to have joy with me. for a long time. He says number 76 for a long time. It's just this beautiful ending. It's almost like a movie here, Matt, where it got started and then it went really dark and then it ends with this glorious conclusion.
SPEAKER_01
18:07 - 18:52
This case that way too, where it wraps up pretty quickly, where it reaches resolutions. pretty quickly. And then the divers 77 that last period, the end of the world, is just summed up in a verse. And then when the time comes, the evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered, and the good will I preserve, and the bad will I cast away into its own place? That's gets quoted, actually, by the Lord, in doctrine, comments 88. And there's going to come a time when Satan and his hosts and those select few who will not inherit a kingdom of glory will be in their own place. That conflict that has existed from the time of the pre-mortal existence will be at an end.
SPEAKER_00
18:52 - 19:47
You mentioned this before, Matt, how could this possibly come out of Joseph Smith's head? He had never seen an olive tree in his life. The furthest south he ever got was I think Washington DC where it snows. There are things about all of trees from Paul and from Isaiah, but there's nothing about burning and longing. I think the only book that existed on all of husbandry about the time was written in 1820 and it was in French. So the fact that these details are in there, it's kind of evidence that this is an ancient text, parasites or diseases that would cause bad fruit. If you cut those branches off and you have to burn them so that you can't just leave them. Yeah, you got to burn them and it would come bird to use Xenus's word. You're way working around the others. This is an ancient text. Got to be.
SPEAKER_01
19:47 - 19:58
Amen. He calls up his servants that reminded me, this is a coronation ceremony. They're going to be anointed with the oil produced by the vineyard. Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00
19:58 - 19:59
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02
19:59 - 20:14
What a beautiful chapter. Honestly, I hope what we've discussed in this chapter lights a fire under people to say, I want to go get more because really what you said Matt, you could study this for the rest of your life and there's more and more.
SPEAKER_01
20:14 - 20:17
And there will always be more. That's the beauty of it.
SPEAKER_00
20:17 - 20:33
That book that you held up. Here's one chapter. And here's another one. There's another one. Those farms folks did on King Benjamin's speech. Those like 700 pages. It just shows there's such depth here. Jacob chapter six, he's going to bring up some thereforezer. Did you notice type of thing?
SPEAKER_02
20:33 - 20:35
Well, let's do that then. Matt.
SPEAKER_01
20:36 - 22:08
is chapter six Jacob saying hey let me explain this to you yeah it's like Nephi does he isn't just gonna dump it on us and then leave no interpretation of it he really does start to unpack that beginning of the first verse And now, behold, my brother and as I said unto you that I would prophesy, behold, this is my prophecy that the things which the prophet Zina spent concerning the house of Israel, in which he likened them to a team of three must surely come to pass. And then he quotes Isaiah, Isaiah 1111, and the day that he shall, you'll see. set his hand again the second time to recover his people is the day even the last time that the servants of the Lord shall go forth in his power to nourish and prune his vineyard after that come at the end. And then it's interesting here. You're familiar with Isaiah 11 11. That's the prophecy that Israel will be gathered from. many lists seven nations, and then he adds an eighth element from the islands of the sea. And it's fun to take away who I students through this because any given class where you have maybe 20 people or more, you're going to find at least seven nations there, and then the aisles of the sea. It helps them understand the seven is the important element because that's a number of fullness or completion or perfection in Hebrew numerology. But then you're getting the Isles of the Sea. We've got students here from every part of the Pacific.
SPEAKER_00
22:08 - 22:22
Listen, Oh Isles. I just had to underline verse four. He remember the house of Israel both roots and branches. He stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long. He's a very involved Lord of the Vineyard.
SPEAKER_01
22:23 - 22:46
And if we take the Malachi take on this, roots and branches are both ancestors and descendants. And so we're looking at something that traverses even the veil of death. He remembers the ones in the spirit world now. He remembers those on this side of the veil. He even has in mind those who are still in premortality and are coming.
SPEAKER_02
22:46 - 22:53
I catch that in verse five. love God as he loves you. If that's one thing you get out of Jacob five.
SPEAKER_01
22:53 - 23:19
The divine embrace, this is a theme in the book of Mormon, by the way, it begins with Lehigh. I am circled about eternally in the arms of his love when Nephi wants to be encircled around in the robe of his righteousness. Here, Jacob is saying, cleave unto God as he cleave unto you and his arm of mercy is extended towards you. this idea that God embraces us.
SPEAKER_00
23:19 - 23:20
That cathart?
SPEAKER_01
23:20 - 25:14
Yeah, I nibbly connected it with that. And the Egyptian word Cappet, which is an embrace, it was drawn with arms reaching down out of heaven. And nibbley's connection was that this is the embrace that consumates the final escape from death. And the Egyptian feonerei rituals. There's a lot of language in the Psalms. I did my spary symposium presentation on this this year. This is found expression in the temple in Jerusalem as well. They I did coming under Jehovah's wings, taking refuge in his wings. Third Nephi, the invitation. where invites us to come on to him. His arm of mercy is extended. He'll gather us even as a hand gather if your chickens under her wings. You run around with this town here. You're going to see chickens. Sometimes following the mother hand, they get soaked here a lot too. So that's when they gather them up. Keep them warm and safe. There's an illusion to the Psalms here too, as we come towards the end of it. He asked in verse 6, if you will hear his voice, hard not your hearts, for why will you die? He's quoting from Psalm 95. One of the temple hymns, you remember why his Israel not entered into the rest of the Lord? It's because of their hardening their hearts. They've been testing the Lord, but Jacob wants us not to do that because the Lord's trying to bring us into his rest. He's trying to bring us to where he is. End of that most holy place in the temple. He's represented by the celestial room. Jacob is very temple aware. He uses a lot of that in here. Versus 12 and 13, I don't think he's planning to write more. Obi-Wi is, what can I say more? Finally, I bid unto you farewell until I shall meet you before the pleasing part of God.
SPEAKER_02
25:14 - 25:15
Yeah, sounds like a closing.
SPEAKER_01
25:15 - 25:20
I think he's ending, but then in chapter seven, he's got to tell us some more.
SPEAKER_00
25:20 - 25:35
I tell my students, when we read Jacob 612, Obi-Wi is, what can I say more? that Obi-Wise has a brother Obi-Wan. This is Obi-Wise, and Obi-Wan can Obi-Wan brothers.
SPEAKER_01
25:35 - 25:40
Thank you, John. This one's getting used too. My daughter is going to be horrified.
SPEAKER_00
25:40 - 25:45
It's a growner. Is it a laugh or yeah?
SPEAKER_01
25:45 - 25:58
This one is going to be, what have you done to me? That's when it's so viscerally painful to her. But she feels like I am traumatized her.
SPEAKER_00
25:58 - 26:39
I like the fact that you've mentioned that Jacob sounds like he's done here, Jacob 613. There are, I want to say four major iris of the Book of Mormon. Nephi Jacob, Mormon, Meronai. Nephi Jacob and Meronai all have a phrase like that. I shall meet you. I love the Bible. I get to teach the Gospels. And I'm just saying that Book of Mormon has a different kind of tone of voice where it's, I'm gonna see you. Nephi says it. Jacob says it. Moroni says it. I will meet you one day and it's fun to imagine such a meeting as that. These authors saw us and wrote to us, which is so different. It invites you, you gotta take a stand on this.
SPEAKER_01
26:41 - 27:23
I love it. I think that this is another evidence that this isn't Joseph. Those final testimonies are not the testimonies of someone trying to perpetrate a pious fiction or a fraud. These are real individuals. who are bearing a final testimony that they will meet us there before God. And we will know then if we don't know now, we are going to know then that they have the knowledge that they had. It's being left to us to decide what we're going to do. Remember President Benson said, the book Mormon's not on trial. The members of the church and the world are on trial with what we do with this witness of Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_00
27:24 - 27:37
Nephi's like, if these are not the words of Christ, Judgy, God will show you, and you will see me face to face, and there's a tone of voice there of, wow, this is, they really did see us and write for us.
SPEAKER_02
27:38 - 27:58
Speaking of, let's meet up and talk. Jacob adds this story, a man named Sharon comes among the people, and he's doing something that we haven't seen before. We've seen Laman and Lemiel, murmuring, getting upset, but this Sharon wants to throw off the work. Matt, what should we see in chapter seven?
SPEAKER_01
27:58 - 30:09
When I felt traumatized as a missionary, we're times when There were people that would confront me, specifically trying to shake me from the faith. And that's the phrase he uses here. He says, and he had hoped to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the things which I had seen concerning these things, for I'd truly seen angels. Maybe he even has in mind here the Lord who he saw. Remember, signify 11. Nephi sites him as a witness of Christ, one of his three. Nephi himself, Jacob and Isaiah, and they had also ministered on to me, and I also had heard the voice of the Lord speaking under me from time to time, or for I could not be shaken, but there's something you try to avoid contention as a missionary, you realize that it never gets you anywhere, but then sometimes despite what your efforts you find yourself in a situation where someone is just determined to try to contend with you and shake your faith. And that can be pretty traumatizing. I think that's one of the reasons he's telling us this because this guy really tried to make a full frontal assault on what he already knew to be true. And he did it and the way that he does it's really interesting because he uses it very specious reasoning, very flishous reasoning. He asserts knowledge, like for no man can know of such things, for he cannot tell of things to come, or he asserts things and you get down to the epistemology. Well, how does he know that? how to share know that he doesn't know that he's just asserting these things and it's pretty typical of people who try to challenge the faith of louder they say send others others who have faith in God, faith in Christ. A search of them is if they're true and he provides no evidence. There was a saying that one of my Catholic University professors had, Lee Barra severed out to her, Lee Barra Abnega to her. What's freely asserted can be freely denied, but Jacob goes even further. Remember, when he does more than just dismisses what Sheram is saying, he explains exactly why his reasoning is off base.
SPEAKER_00
30:10 - 30:30
I noticed once that in verse 7 he says, for he cannot tell of things to come, but then at verse 9 he says, there's no Christ neither has been nor ever will be as if he's telling us of things to come. So he's cutting himself off on me. I also think we ought to mention, where did this guy come from? Was he on the ship?
SPEAKER_01
30:30 - 30:35
That's a question that a lot of scholars have asked, is this evidence for others in the land?
SPEAKER_02
30:35 - 30:38
A non-lihite, right?
SPEAKER_01
30:38 - 30:43
And a one scholar has looked at this and thinks, sure, I'm as maybe a Zora might.
SPEAKER_02
30:43 - 30:51
Book of Mormon Central has an interesting article. Did others influence Book of Mormon peoples? We'll put a link to it in our show notes.
SPEAKER_01
30:51 - 30:53
But yeah, it's a good question. Where does this guy come from?
SPEAKER_02
30:55 - 31:26
One thing I'd like to highlight that I think moms and dads, the grandma's and grandpa's could highlight this week is Jacob 75. He had hoped to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many things I had seen. I truly had seen angels. I heard the voice of the Lord. I could not be shaken. I noticed that Jacob doesn't say notwithstanding the many revelations my father had, or the many revelations that my brother had had. What does President Nelson say? And you got to take charge?
SPEAKER_00
31:26 - 31:34
Take charge of your own testimony. Take responsibility. Yeah. My kids have a CD of yours. I think is it called unshaken?
SPEAKER_02
31:34 - 31:45
Yeah. It's called unshaken. Yeah. I'm unshaken. Yeah. I was pretty sad on this idea that you have to have your own experiences. Joseph Smith, I have learned for myself.
SPEAKER_00
31:45 - 31:46
I love it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
31:47 - 34:05
I think it's really personal for Jacob that he's attacking his, specifically not only his faith, but his faith in Christ. And what that faith in Christ means to Jacob personally. And there have been some, why did they say, writers who've written on, even criticizing Jacob for his response. But I think that overlooks just how personal this is to him. Even after Sharon challenges Jacob for the sign, And a sign is given him. He falls to the earth without strength. And there's this point at which Mushroom wants to do a Maya Copa. Jacob summarizes and says, a spake plainly unto them and denied the things which he had taught them for 17 and they confessed and confessed the Christ in the power of the Holy Ghost and the ministering of angels and he spake plainly unto them that he had been deceived by the power of the devil and he spake of hell and of eternity and eternal punishment. And he said, I fear unless I've committed the unpardonable sin for I've lied unto God, for I denied the Christ, and said, I believe the Scriptures. And they truly testify of Him, because I have thus lied unto God, I greatly fear less my case shall be awful, but I confess unto God. Maybe some people expect more of a sympathetic response from Jacob when it comes in just a second. And it came to pass that when he had said these words he could say no more and he gave up the ghost. And when the multitude had witnessed that he spaked these things and was about to go up the ghost, they were astonished exceedingly in so much that the power of God came down upon them. And they were overcome that they fell to the earth. And this thing was pleasing unto me, Jacob, for I requested of my father who is in heaven, for he had heard my crying out to my prayers. And it came to pass that the peace and love of God was restored again among my people. And they searched the scriptures and harkened no more to the words of this wicked man. Maybe some people would expect that he'd be more sympathetic here. But I think that people don't appreciate just how much he was traumatized, I think, by this guy. And that explains why he even told us this story. That this was a real challenge to the stability and the well-being of spiritual, well-being of his people and even to the degree that he felt in himself. He was directly challenged by Sheram.
SPEAKER_00
34:06 - 34:39
I feel like in the New Testament, the Law of Moses had lost its really clear connection for some people pointing to Christ. In the Book of Mormon, it never loses its connection to point them to Christ except for right here. It's interesting to me, this is not core of or saying there's no God. This is Sharon saying, yeah, there's a God, but we're supposed to keep the Law of Moses. And you guys are converting the Law of Moses to the worship of a being which will come many hundred years hence he says in verse seven. So he's trying to disconnect the law of Moses from pointing to Christ. Is that what you see? Share him doing.
SPEAKER_01
34:39 - 35:53
And that's a great cross reference. Remember, second if I 25 at the end. I mean, that's what Nephi is doing. He's trying to help us understand how thoroughly crystallogical and Christ connected the law of Moses is. And that's what's supposed to guide Nephi is descendants. The small plates document, Noel Reynolds has talked about a lot about this and other scholars have. There were some very practical functions that the small plates of Nephi had for Nephi religious claims, for example, Nephi is right to rule, that round counter to the claims of the laymanites. And what Sharam is trying to do here, I think cuts really hard against the grain of what Nephi and later Jacob considers right. He perceives this as more of an existential threat to the community than maybe we sometimes think. This isn't Jacob just defending his ego. This is Jacob at his court defending his testimony of Jesus Christ and the Christ-centeredness of his community. He can't just let that pass.
SPEAKER_00
35:53 - 36:03
Yeah, I love that first twenty-three, the love of God was restored among the people. I mean, that's very fourth Nephi because of the love of God, which dwells in the hearts of the people.
SPEAKER_02
36:03 - 36:55
John Matt, I wanted to do a little shout out to Ashley Stone and Lauren Rose. They run a podcast called The Come Back podcast. You can find it on YouTube. Listen to some of these episodes. After leaving the church, a lease felt misunderstood. And this is episode is how God reached out and softened her heart. Here's another episode. Stephen Murphy left the church after being exposed to anti-mormon content. After much studying and researching, he returned. And there's another episode. Unexpected pain and lost lead Susan to leave the church. After 15 years away, she returned. And it goes on and on. I connect that to that verse, came to pass. Peace. and love of God was restored, and that can happen in someone's life. Matt, what do we need to see before we let you go?
SPEAKER_01
36:56 - 39:32
Another evidence that Joseph is not the author of this comes in verse 26, but I think this is beautiful, and it's become to mean more to me as I'm about to traverse the age of 50 line, says it came to pass that I Jacob began to be old, and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of me if I were for I conclude this record declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge, by saying that the time passed away with us. Also, our lives passed away, like as it were, under us a dream. We being alone, some in a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation, and in a wilderness and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions, wherefore we did mourn out our days. A lot of the students I have here are from diaspora communities. The families have even been removed from their home lands, sometimes for one or more generations. Jacob's filling it all, right? All of the trauma of exile and displacement. He's filling it. But I will tell you, no young man would write this. If we're looking at Joseph as the author of this, there's no way he wrote this. Saying the time had passed away, with us in all so our lives passed away. Like is it? We're on to us a dream. I look back at the years with my children. It's gone so fast. The time with my wife since we met in suburban DC and Virginia is just gone so fast. You know, you're back in your 20s and your 30s and you think, ah, you know, I've just got all the time in the world. the hourglass just keeps running and all the sudden you notice it's half empty and then it's keeps running and you realize we're all on the clock and the this beautiful thing we call youth isn't forever those are not the words of the young man those are the words of a prophet of God who has seen his life go in the years of his life go and he's experienced them in really traumatic ways in exile cut off remembers of his family who chose a completely different path. I just love that. It's one of my favorite verses and to bring it back to the Savior. Again, I think this chapter is about not just Jacob's life and the end of his life, but his testimony of Christ. He lived it to the end of those days that passed as like unto a dream.
SPEAKER_02
39:32 - 39:38
I feel the same way mad. I keep telling my wife. I got old too fast. I got wise too slow.
SPEAKER_00
39:42 - 40:41
It's so true, I put in my margin, no happily ever after. And for Jacob, who was who Lee I had just the best talk with him in 2nd Nephi 2, about why there's opposition and all things and everything, not a happy life, but I love what you've said because I look back to and just go, when did all of this happen? How did this go by so fast? It's like a dream. Yeah. So I appreciate that insight. I'm going to be thinking about that. I wanted to look at the last word in verse 27 because some people stumble at Jacob saying, brethren, I do. Now in the French book of Mormon, it says, living the shores, see you later. No, I don't know what it says. But my kids who I've got two French speakers on a son-in-law, that's a French speaker now, do an adios come from the same place, right? Wow. Go with God. And that makes it.
SPEAKER_01
40:41 - 40:47
There's a finality to Adios at a adieu that there isn't with.
SPEAKER_00
40:47 - 40:48
With sea later. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
40:48 - 40:50
Yeah, sea later. I love it.
SPEAKER_00
40:50 - 40:56
Yeah, that's a French word, but he wanted to get that meaning of Go with God.
SPEAKER_02
40:56 - 41:03
Matt, we know we got to let you go. Can you give us 90 seconds? Tell us how you feel about the Book of Mormon.
SPEAKER_01
41:04 - 42:03
It is a witness of Christ that I hope will sink deeply into and penetrate our souls in this coming year in a way that it's words never have before. I hope that we will see Christ that we will connect more deeply to His atonement and the ways in which He's seeking to gather us to Him in fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. That's what we've been talking about. That's what Jacob 5 is about. It's about Christ's painstaking, atoning work to gather us to Him and help us to become all that we have the capacity to become and that His will will be done. He will continue to work with us. He'll continue to completely honor our agency. but we make it so much easier on ourselves and often others when we decide to let God prevail in our lives.
SPEAKER_02
42:03 - 42:08
The shareams may defame, but the truth of God will go forth.
SPEAKER_01
42:08 - 42:12
And that segue is nicely into that standard of truth.
SPEAKER_02
42:12 - 42:19
Now, Matt, thank you. Thank you for spending time with us today. You could have been on the beach out there in Hawaii.
SPEAKER_01
42:20 - 42:35
And now I get to go into the classroom, and I've energized because of what we've experienced here. So thank you to you, John and Hank, and to your wonderful staff, too. You're making a huge difference. It is moving the needle.
SPEAKER_02
42:35 - 42:39
Thank you for saying that about our team. We love our team. And we love you.
SPEAKER_01
42:39 - 42:51
It's completely mutual. Love your team. Love both of you. And thank you for all that you've shared here, all that you always share. So generously. I could speak for all of your listeners that we all love you.
SPEAKER_02
42:53 - 44:17
We'll take it. We'll take it. We want to thank Dr. Matthew Bowen, Dr. Matt Bowen for being with us today. What a treat. How fun. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sourntson, our sponsors, David, and Verla Sourntson. And we always remember our founder, Steve Sourntson. We hope you'll join us next week. We've got a lot of years to cover. Enus, Jerm, Omni, words of Mormon on follow, hip. Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode's transcript and show notes are available on our website, follow him.co. That's follow him.co. On our website, you'll also find our two books, finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the old and new testament. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won't find anywhere else. If you'd like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nilsen, Will Stoten, Crystal Roberts, Ari Elcuadra, and Annabelle Sornson.
SPEAKER_03
44:17 - 44:29
Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.