Transcript for Mosiah 29 - Alma 4 Part 2 • Dr. Nate Williams • June 3 - June 9 • Come Follow Me

SPEAKER_02

00:01 - 00:07

Welcome to Part 2, Dr. Nate Williams, who's eye a chapter 29 through Elm of Four.

SPEAKER_03

00:07 - 03:41

The next question I have, how is the order of Nehord different from the Holy Order of God? It really looks like in chapter 1 Mormon wants to make sure you parallel or juxtapose the profession of Nehore as opposed to what's going on in the Church of the Holy Order of God. One of the first things I observe is that the profession of Nehore is prideful. It's motivated by riches. Mormon wants the reader to understand that those in the Holy Order of God are humble. and they impart the word of God well with another, and even says it without money, and without price. A second comparison may be to see between those two, a stark difference. Those following kneehors, plan, is beliefs. They persecute believers. But we read in verse 21 that those in the order of God have a very strict law in the church for bidding that anyone should arise and persecute those that do not belong to the church. or even among themselves. Sadly, though, the ideal doesn't always hold up in the church. We see in those chapters, there is still some time some intentions and persecutions even among the people of God's church, which is a reality we all deal with where there are firm, clear laws, but the challenge to the people of God always measure up to the ideal. A third parallel I saws that the people of Nihor are committed to satisfying the desires of the natural man or in the words of Mormon indulging themselves in all manner of wickedness. While those who stand fast in the faith of God were told in verse 25, are immovable in keeping the commandments of God and bear with patience the persecutions heaped upon them. A couple more parallels, the order of Nehore creates a culture, interested in clothing themselves in costly apparel. which is contrary to that of those in the Church of God, who are characterized by not wearing costly apparel, in verse 27, he clearly was let you know that, and that they are neat and calmly. A final parallel. The order of knee-horde does not believe in the repentance of sins. That's not something we're going to read directly in here, but I love how Hank read between the lines of those verses, but later on in Alma 15, 15, will read about Aminaiha and others who say they're after this order, and they clearly do not believe in the repentance of sins. Contrasted by those who abide in the Holy Order, they believe that salvation comes to those who exercise faith in Christ unto repentance. Ironically, the Holy Order of God and the steadiness in that order, verse 29, creates an abundant world filled with riches. maybe a temptation for the saints of God to remove their focus from Him and from others to the abundant blessings and making that their God. It seems to be kind of a critical challenge for those in the Holy Order of God to stay there by keeping their focus still on Christ and in imparting of their substance. So very interesting conclusion to chapter one is the Mormon draws parallels to clearly that you know We have really a rival church and order that is very unhealthy and destructive to this people.

SPEAKER_01

03:41 - 03:50

It's a great contrast, isn't it, Nate? To go, here's Nehorsway. Here's the Lord's Way. Let's put them in the same chapter side by side so you really see the differences.

SPEAKER_02

03:51 - 04:04

I love what you did, the profession of Nehore and the holy order of God. Or you could say, priest craft versus priesthood. Yeah. That's a great way to look at that chapter. I love it.

SPEAKER_01

04:04 - 04:28

I've always thought, Nate, what you said in verse 30, the pride cycle, they broke it. They broke the pride cycle. You would think, oh, they're becoming prosperous. I know what's going to happen next. They're going to become prideful, and yet they don't. They don't send away the naked, don't grieve the sick. They don't set their hearts on riches, even though they have them. It's easy to give away something that your heart isn't set on.

SPEAKER_03

04:30 - 08:27

Amazing, a lot sad that in a few years things could change so differently from this group that seems like they're really succeeding. They're really doing well. They're really staying on their humble cycle, the top of it, and truly being liberal to all no respect to your persons. It falls apart on them. I'm really curious on this question. How do I read the Amlicei narrative? Chapter 2 through 3 differently, if I connect it with Nihor. It appears they were originally part of one chapter. The author Mormon wanted us to lump them all together, even though we might look at a mystery different chapters. And I wondered if I gave a paragraph summary of the Amlasai narrative. And then I'd love to hear any thoughts you might have about how's that different viewing this work of Amlasai as an extension of Nehore versus its own separate little isolated incident. It begins, I'm chapter two, with contention in the land, because of a very cunning man named Amlasai. And we're told, he's part of the order of Nihor. Clearly, he wants to make sure the thoughts and ideas that are driving him come from Nihor. This man's very popular, he had much people following him, and it obtained great power by these numbers, among the Sarah Hamlet community. The community of followers wanted him to become a king. which is not only a rejection of Alma, rejection of Alma's a high priest in his teachings, but a rejection of Alma and Mosiah and the transition to the reign of the judges. And it looks like for some reason in their political policy, they have to have a vote. Even though it was quite alarming to many people in the church that Amalasai could arise to have such great power because the people in the church were a little bit extra worry because he had an intention to destroy the church of God. The vault was taken. I'm sure all the people in the church of God were really happy that Amalasai's people did not obtain the victory. But Amalasai's people, driven by anger, a degree of rebellion still go ahead and consecrate him as a king. A rival political power now, not the rival religion, we've got a rival political power with Amalasai, and this rebellious political revival now known as Amalasites prepares and leads them into a civil war, so they start to then grow an army. and both groups prepare for conflict and eventually engage in war. Both sides are noted for their great strength. Hamless sites flee after they start becoming beaten, destroyed, losing in this battle, and then we get numbers. The 12,500 and something Hamless sites were slain, and 6,500 Nephites were slain. They're hunting and chasing him into the wilderness, but eventually they get away. and they sent some spies after them. Some spies to see what's really going on with this group that's wrecking such havoc among our people. And the spies come back with an alarming report. These people have united with the Lamanites, and they're attacking our brethren and lands north above the land of Xerahemla. And we have got to come to their rescue. Alma and the Nephite armies go to the area engage in another battle of this numerous army of Amalasites and Lamanites, eventually, a one-on-one combat ensues between Alman Amalasai, and which Amalasai is slain, eventually the Lamanite king briefly engages but then retreat from Alma. into the wilderness with his people and lots and lots of people die.

SPEAKER_01

08:37 - 08:56

One is the high priest. There is the chief judge. I noticed something as you were explaining this. Never thought about this before, Nate, but we've got a micro look at Nihor. How it looks coming from a person. And then we've got a macro look at the order of Nihor. What it looks like coming from a group of people. It's very similar.

SPEAKER_03

08:56 - 09:02

Oh, interesting. Yeah, the individual moved into a group of people.

SPEAKER_01

09:03 - 09:09

In fact, Mormon says they met in the valley of Gideon, almost like it's Nehore and Gideon again.

SPEAKER_03

09:09 - 09:13

Right, go on.

SPEAKER_02

09:13 - 09:56

That's a great insight. It's the same thing, but now it's a group. And like Nehore, there's no compromise here. The voice of the people said, no thanks. An endless side said, okay, well, then I'll force you. I don't know a whole lot about ancient warfare. But I know that in modern warfare, The leaders, the king, they stay back and they send the privates and the corporals out in the front. And here is Alma fought with Amlesi with the sword face to face. In verse 29, night, think that the kings went to battle at the front of their armies, perhaps instead of in the rearward, and I don't know if that's true or not, but that's sure what it sounds like here.

SPEAKER_01

09:56 - 10:09

I love in both of these that Alma is taking this on. I think of the prophet today who does not shrink back from teaching the truth and meeting it head on.

SPEAKER_03

10:09 - 11:02

Yeah. If I was to now interject the description of a person, I'd be curious who you would think about from our reading today and study who might this be describing. A wicked man and I dolletrous man. A man of many words, who did speak much flattery to the people. Therefore he led many people to do after the manner of his iniquities. He became a great hinderment to the prosperity of the church, stealing away the hearts of people, causing much dissension among the people, and giving a chance for the enemy of God to exercise his power over them, going about to destroy the church of God. I think we got a couple of really strong possibilities from today's reading.

SPEAKER_01

11:02 - 11:07

It's Alma himself.

SPEAKER_03

11:07 - 12:44

Crazy to think about that it looks like his experience was only a few years ago. If I'm doing the math right, the book of Alma might be this incredible On record of Alma dealing with, even some of the past challenges that he may have been a part of himself at one time, but no longer is. Maybe reminding us that you can change through Christ, and you don't have to be a knee-horre forever. You don't have to be a coriander. You don't have to be a zormite, or an amalacaya. Another person who was called a wicked man in the scriptures, Alma and Amalikaya, we sometimes going to a new chapter quickly forget that this was Alma's world a few years earlier. And I think not only does Amalasai linked with Nihor, change it, but maybe also Alma linked with Nihor, and Amalasai but no longer linked. Now he's in a completely different setting in his mind and heart, because he cried out for the atoning blood of Christ to be applied to his soul and got deliverance. So it's maybe showing quite a contrasting Alma, that no longer is condemned at all, but is still dealing maybe with consequences that it seemed like it's at least for me easy to oversimplify that everybody in Xara Hamla is all on board with the new government, with the new leadership, but it looks like it's not quite as simple as that.

SPEAKER_01

12:44 - 13:07

I love that you're doing getting an almas life. Here, he's not a black and white figure who was once bad and always good. His life is much more complicated than that. I was wicked once, now I'm good and everything's fine. These are some complex issues and you're right. What if he is facing some of the very things he caused?

SPEAKER_03

13:07 - 13:41

Yeah, maybe seeking to make things right. Or like we read in the book of Mazaya, how they went about zealously striving to repair. All they had done wrong was the book of Alma is a lot about zealously striving to repair. Anything that might still be lingering on, from things I taught, things I did, things I was a part of, and I don't know, I don't know to what degree Alma and Nihor. But by that description in the book of Alma, it looks like they could have been at least cousins spiritually until there was a great change.

SPEAKER_01

13:41 - 14:08

Our friend, Joe Spencer, he pointed out to me that Alma won starts with Nihor, Alma 2 and 3 goes into the amulocytes, and then he says it starts over again with Korahore, And I'm a 30 a single chapter about an enterprise that then moves into the Zora Mites. So almost as if Mormon is paralleling these stories.

SPEAKER_03

14:08 - 16:35

Yeah, the intentionality, so amazing. And I'd like to maybe in a little later point out a couple of other of those parallels, one of them being with the prayer of Alma in deliverance before he engages with Amless Eye and the prayer of Alma before he engages in deliverance among the Zoramites. That Mormon seems to want to give you prayers, one only being a verse long And one being a little longer, but maybe in a minute, we can bring that additional parallel up. I love that. Just to invites me to take every word and phrase more seriously when you see some of these parallel accounts and intentional repetitious things taking place in the book. Question number seven. We learned that in Alma chapter 3 is this first chapter comes to a close, that Mormon wants to give a little excerpt about the curses of God, that come upon people. This is a very difficult and challenging part for people even today, the modern reader. to try to understand in an edifying way things about God's curses. So the question I was drawn to think about in a broad, simple way, what do I learn about the curses of God from the amulocyte experience? There's a few things that maybe we can take away that might still be difficult, but still possibly edifying, and then realize there might be many things that we still don't know. about Book of Mormon history and curses that we're going to have to be patient with. God gives us more understanding about them and them and about himself and his own dealings. It's a difficult topic, it's challenging at once, but it seems like towards the end of Alma chapter 3 We have about a dozen verses where Mormon wants to talk about God's curses. He begins the thoughts with this with Amalasites who choose to mark themselves in verse 4 with red in their foreheads after the manner of the layman knights. That they really want to look differently outwardly because inwardly they know they're on different pages than the Nephites. So they choose to mark themselves with red and therefore heads and they say that it's after the manner of how the Lamanites choose to mark themselves.

SPEAKER_02

16:35 - 16:42

Like verse 19 that says every man that has cursed brings upon himself as a condemnation. It's not an arbitrary thing.

SPEAKER_03

16:43 - 17:29

Recently, John, I'd be curious to hear what you think about this. I was reading Elder Christopherson's conference message on the ceiling power. He talked about briefly the wrath of God. I don't know if you could ever substitute wrath for curse of God, but he gave a quick definition and he said, wrath in this context may be understood as the natural consequence of widespread disobedience to the laws and commandments of God. And it made me think a little bit about a curse, could it be the natural consequence of disobedience to a law or a commandment of God? Versus what Hank was saying about some arbitrary pattern that God chooses to like or dislike certain people?

SPEAKER_01

17:29 - 17:38

It's interesting that the amulocytes choose to mark themselves and then Mormon sees that as the Lord set a mark upon them.

SPEAKER_03

17:39 - 19:50

Well, it's interesting in that verse. They do it after the man or the laminites. There's so much recent scholarship on this that swings the pendulum. The last 100 page of her call. I read out of the interpreter somewhere was strongly suggesting their argument that the laminite mark was an intentional physical dark mark put upon individuals who chose to distinguish themselves. I'm one of their examples that I remember stuff from the articles when the Nephites have to look for a laymanite to take the alcohol over to them during the time of war and they have to look around to find them. It's not that clear, easy, physical, oh, you're completely of a darker skin nature, you must be a layman. That was one of many episodes where they were trying to make an argument of a localized intentional individual outward mark. That was viewed as a curse of God, even though it wasn't individually or personally placed upon them. To me one of the things too that really stands out here that goes along with what John said on the personal choice nature of curses in God's plan is verse 14 when Mormon, quote, something given to Nephi that we don't have, cited anywhere else in the Book of Mormon. Verse 14, thus the word of God is fulfilled. For these are the words which he said to Nephi, Behold, the Lamanites have I cursed, and I will set a mark on them, and they and their seed may be separated from the and die seed, from this time henceforth and forever, except they repent of their wickedness and turn to me that I may have mercy upon them. I love that whatever these curses are, they're conditional. This is not something that's, for ordained or predestined or punishing long-term children of God. These are things that can all be overcome with any kind of generational attitude where someone chooses to repent.

SPEAKER_01

19:51 - 20:14

The Amosites becoming like the Lamanites, the curse being cut off from God because you seek to destroy other people. That choice of I want to hurt people who are not like me. I want to injure them. I want to kill them even. That that itself is a curse.

SPEAKER_03

20:14 - 21:18

I like how Mormon concludes this whole chapter one, which is in our rating chapter three. When he says in verse 26 and 27, and in one year, worth thousands and tens of thousands of souls sent to the eternal world that they might reap their rewards according to their works, whether they were good or whether they were bad. to repeat eternal happiness or eternal misery, according to the Spirit which they listed to obey, whether it be a good spirit or a bad one, or everyone receiveeth wages of him whom he listed to obey. And this is according to the words of the Spirit of Prophecy, therefore let it be according to the truth. Your choices do matter, and your choices do bring consequences. And hopefully we can all be wise, because we all, I think, all of God's children we want to have a happy life filled with blessings. and that there is truly a right way to live and be happy.

SPEAKER_01

21:18 - 21:32

Everyone chooses a profit. Sometimes we think, oh, I'm not choosing President Nelson or I'm not choosing the current president of the church, but by not choosing one, you are choosing another. Everyone has a profit.

SPEAKER_02

21:34 - 22:32

We had an earlier guest Hank who said, we're all disabled by somebody and I thought what an interesting idea. And I remember President Irings saying, when we choose to say we are independent of the Lord's influence, this is what not really independent. We're choosing another influence. Those verses that you read, innate verse 19 every man. This we can talk and we do a lot in our dialogue about this group makes me matter. That group is like this for this group, but our second article of faith is we'll be punished for our own sins. Verse 19 every man every individual. that his curse brings upon himself his own condemnation, and then in verse 27, every man every individual, these are talking about individuals. Receives wages of him whom he listed to obey. I heard a comedian say once, the wages of sin is death, but after taxes are taken out, it's just kind of a tired one.

SPEAKER_03

22:36 - 25:12

I'd like to share a quote from Elder Ahmed Corbett of the corps of the 70s from a series of these essays that he wrote about race in the priesthood a few years ago that seemed very relevant and inspiring to me as I try to wrestle and ponder upon this thought about curses and marks. In other Corbett wrote, we see that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is uniquely able and divinely destined to become the most unifying global organization in the history of the world. Clearly the Savior's Church in the Gospel it administers, transcends race, ethnicity, culture. The Church exists largely together and unify the Father's children from every nation on the earth as brothers and sisters. Our church is uniquely empowered and destined to achieve worldwide peace, harmony and unity among all the peoples of the earth through his atonement. Jesus Christ transforms the way we view ourselves and the entire human family. He transforms the way we see the church, its leaders, its gathering and saving mission, its members and the restored gospel in general. And then this thought really grabbed me The Book of Mormon is the most racially unifying book on Earth. Another way of saying that the Book of Mormon Gather scattered Israel is to say that it invites and unites people of all races and ethnicities as brothers and sisters. It unites all people who accept the gospel in a common covenant with God, our eternal Father, and Jesus Christ our eternal Savior. The gathering also unites all the children of Adam and Eve into the common covenant family of Abraham. Another microcosm of God's universal family. All these forms of unity are fully accomplished as individuals and families receive and keep. All the ordinances and cabinets of the gospel of Jesus Christ offered by the Lord's authorized servants. He invites anyone to read the Book of Mormon with an eye toward understanding its role in power as an instruction manual for unifying God's earthly children of all races and ethnicities. God himself is bringing to pass for the salvation of his children in the last days through the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Close quote.

SPEAKER_02

25:12 - 25:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_03

25:13 - 25:15

I love that, and I believe that.

SPEAKER_01

25:15 - 25:17

Elder Corbett, he's been on our show before.

SPEAKER_03

25:18 - 25:24

And most importantly, he's an alumni of the Great Rick's College in Rick's Brigadier Hall.

SPEAKER_01

25:24 - 25:29

John told me, Nate, that you played basketball of Rick's College?

SPEAKER_03

25:29 - 28:51

I did. Yes. I spent way too much time in my life throwing a ball in a double. All right. This next question maybe takes us a little bit back into our previous chapters, but it's one that intrigues me before we move on to our last couple of questions in the last chapters. Back to chapters one through three, I was intrigued by how Mormon chooses to use first person quotes, even if they're brief. The question that I'm asking here is what do we learn about Alma? or about the Mormon in the use of Alma's words, from the two times he has Alma directly speak in this one chapter. We get two quotes from Alma. They seem to have significance. And I think part of what got me thinking about this question was a book I've been reading recently called The Art of Biblical Narrative by a man named Alter, and in his book one of the chapters is about biblical dialogue. And he writes this, the biblical scene suggests that what is significant about a character can be manifest almost entirely in the character speech. Now I don't No of any way that Mormon would have been directly impacted to right-light biblical authors. But let's assume and pretend that when he has a character speak, he really wants it to reveal a lot about an idea and maybe even about the person. That's what they're suggesting about biblical narrative. He goes on to write in any given narrative event, and especially at the beginning of a new story, which we're at, we're the new book, we're the new story, we're the new chapter, the point at which dialogue first emerges is worthy of special attention. And in most instances, the initial words spoken by a personage will be revelatory concerning that person's character. If we get to go back quickly and look at two times, Alma is allowed to speak in the storytelling of Mormon and say, what does he want me to think about Alma? What does he want me to think about this idea? We're going through the war with the Amlassites. We get to the point of a critical moment when Alma and Amlassites are going face-to-face in chapter 2 verse 30. And it came to pass that Alma being a man of God, being exercised with much faith, cried saying, I guess we could put quotation marks here in our scriptures, all Lord have mercy and spare my life, that I may be an instrument in die hands to save and preserve this people. Now, when Alma had said these words, he contended, again, with Amalasai, and he was strengthened in so much that he slew Amalasai with the sword. He could have summarized that, said he prayed, prayed really beautifully, powerfully. But somehow he wanted those words to teach us something about Alma. It may be in a spirit of elder Razband, words matter a lot. They're the bedrock of how we connect.

SPEAKER_02

28:52 - 29:15

I'm so glad you pointed this out because he wants to be an instrument in the hands of God to save and preserve this people. Any reader of the Book of Mormon can say Alma has been an instrument in the hands of God to help them. Yeah, he could have summarized that. Spare my life so that I can be an instrument that's a window into the character of Alma.

SPEAKER_03

29:15 - 29:32

Yeah, that's wonderful. It's beautiful. Is it a foreshadowing of the rest of the book? Let's talk about a man who got his prayer answered not once, but for the rest of his life, he gets to be this ministering instrument of God to bless and preserve people.

SPEAKER_02

29:32 - 29:40

Mormon would want to preserve that. We don't have quotation marks in the Book of Mormon. There's a few places where you could insert them and I guess that's one of them, huh?

SPEAKER_03

29:42 - 30:56

I love how the Book of Mormon chooses a different time to actually give us the prayers. Like, Mural and I are bridging the Book of Ether, will give us the prayer of the brother of Jared. Not to tell us he prayed. He'll actually let us read his words. What do you think if we wrap things up with two last questions? Yeah, let's do it. This is great. Question number nine, let's jump to chapter four for these questions he's last to. Two things seem to be happening in chapter four. On one hand, we see the church in verse four getting established more fully. Thousands of people uniting the church through baptism. And then on the other hand, we see the church failing in its progress. It's hard to believe in imagined in one simple chapter. You've got such extreme things happening. A church that is getting established, a church that is failing. I guess the first question because we want to end on the positive. Today is, in these chapters, what does it look like for the church to fail? What are some of those distinguishing characteristics of a failing church?

SPEAKER_02

30:57 - 31:18

One might be that we're striving for unity. If you're not one, you're not money. There's this Zion ideal that we're striving for. And when I see verse 12, he saw great inequality among the people. That is the opposite of the Zion idea that we're trying to get to.

SPEAKER_03

31:18 - 36:21

I was thinking on your observation, John, with inequality, we have the idea of inequality coming up again. in other places in the Book of Mormon, one of them being third Nephi before the Savior comes and the church seems to be struggling and the phrase is something like there was great inequality in the land in so much that the church is broken up, associating a struggling church with prevailing inequality or attitudes or behaviors that promote inequality and focusing on this note for the second I am so grateful to belong to the Savior's Church that is committed to overcoming any unrighteous inequality wherever it exists in the world. A little plug for BYU Idaho. This is a school that admits almost every single applicant. I'm grateful to be a part of it. The list could be innumerable if a person was willing to ponder about the ways Jesus Christ is directing His servants to overcome all inequality. And the list will be staggering if you start to ponder that about what is happening. And that is a reminder of by their fruits you shall know them. personally institutionally about a fatally struggling church. A couple of months ago, we were fortunate to have come to BYUIDO campus sister Sharon Ubank. In her role as a humanitarian leader and director organizer in the church, she gave a stirring talk to the student body at a forum. And I was so grateful it was transcribed so I could see if I remembered what she said correctly. And in regard to maybe again, the spirit of talking about inequality for just a second and a struggling church, she said this, I'm occasionally asked, why doesn't the church spend more money on humanitarian work? Why doesn't it stop building expensive temples and focus its resources on relieving the poor? I think sometimes chapters like this stretch us and stir us about that. She says, this is a legitimate question for the Church of Jesus Christ. But is it money that solves society's ills? The world has poured two trillion dollars into addressing chronic issues in Africa. Why isn't the situation better? Because money isn't really the issue. Lasting progress comes through trusted relationships, infrastructure, reducing corruption, and the ability of people to work together. Money doesn't necessarily create those things. They must be developed alongside resources and frankly, it's much harder work. This is certainly coming from somebody who's been in the trenches and knows about the challenges and messiness of it. She goes on to say, I will never discount the one thing this church does that lifts entire communities in rapid development. And be everybody could think, well, what is that? It invites men and women of all social classes and backgrounds to enter sacred buildings and make the most binding and important promises of their mortal lives. In those buildings, they promise not to steal, not to lie, they promise to be faithful to their spouse and children, they vow that will seek the interest of their neighbors and be peacemakers and become devoted to the idea that we're all one family, all valued and all alike and to God. If those promises made in holy temples are kept, it transforms society faster than any aid or development project ever could. The greatest charitable development on the planet is for people to bind themselves to God and mean it. Thank goodness the church builds 335 temples and counting is the greatest poverty alleviation system in the world. That's the phrase I was like drawn to like did I hear that right? Did I hear somebody who's really in the trenches? in the temporal as well as the spiritual, the greatest poverty alleviation system, make a covenant and really mean it. And like John said earlier, they're committed to this Zion-like truth that we're going to be one hard, one mind. We're going to dwell in righteousness and there's not going to be poor among us. And they find people right around them. Even though they're worried about the whole world, at least find people right around them that they can start administering to. They can start imparting of their substance to.

SPEAKER_02

36:21 - 36:25

Oh, I just want to know, is that a published source? I love that.

SPEAKER_03

36:25 - 36:37

So yeah, that's why I had to go online and find her forum. And I was so glad they had a transcript of it, so that I could make sure I was hearing it right. And I could quote it right. It's very stirring, very thought provoking.

SPEAKER_02

36:37 - 36:38

Was it a BYU?

SPEAKER_03

36:39 - 36:43

It was a BYU Idaho. Let's make sure we know that.

SPEAKER_02

36:43 - 36:55

I love the idea that Jesus ministered one at a time, that hearts are changed one at a time. If we're going to change the world, it's going to be one at a time, which is, can it take a while?

SPEAKER_01

36:55 - 37:14

I noticed in Alma 411 and 12, that iniquity and inequality are those two words are really close together. And I wonder if they have the same etymology that If not, we could say that an equity in inequality are closely linked.

SPEAKER_03

37:15 - 41:13

I think so too and I think it's an interesting mystery to ponder on. How iniquity creates selfish unequal societies. There's a little surprising to me a few years ago and somebody pointed out what they called the sins of Sodom in Gomorrah. Many of us have maybe stereotypical thoughts of that and this person went to the book of Ezekiel and read from chapter 16 and said, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom. And then the list goes on, pride. We see that a lot here, fullness of bread, abundance of idolness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and the needy. And none of my list of these like sexual transgressions or other things seemed to surface in Ezekiel's recounting, but there were elements of pride and abundance that has turned away from the least of these. There's a fascinating parable in the doctrine and covenants about inequality. I'm intrigued by it. It stirs me. I'm not sure if I completely understand it. It's the story in section 38 in this revelation where saints are wrestling with in parting of their substance going to New York to Ohio. Literally or also from those who maybe have in Ohio and need to give. But God gives this parable, and before He gives the parable in section 38 He says, let every man a steam his brother as himself, and then like this one verse parallel. For what man among you, having 12 sons and his no-respector of them, and they serve him obediently, and He sayeth unto the one, be thou clothe and robes, and sit thou here. And to the other, be thou clothed in rags, and sit thou here. This seems like a strange Lord. And look at the upon his sons and sayeth, I am just. Think everybody would look at that parable, say, that is not a just father. That is not a just king. The commentary Jesus gives to this parable, behold, this I have given unto you as a parable. And it is even as I am. And then he goes on to say, the phrase, most of us know, I say unto you be one. And if you're not one, you're not mine. This is how I see this. And I certainly stand to be corrected by anybody. Jesus is not into creating unequal situations. But he has given us a really unequal situation in mortality. There are a lot of situations where every single person could say, that's unfair. and probably be accurate. So how could that be like Jesus? Well, this is where I read a little bit between the lines knowing other scriptures. What about that is like Jesus? Jesus is fully committed to helping us overcome any inequality that stands between us and Heavenly Father. He is the great act of one who overcomes inequality so that we can become like him. There's a big, big gap between us. And he's willing to do everything he can to help us become one with the Father. And if you're not one, you're not my any invites us in a number of ways to engage in this opportunity to overcome temporal spiritual inequality to become one like him to practice what he does. through his power, through his infinite condescension and atonement, to help people reach a higher level of living than they could on their own.

SPEAKER_01

41:13 - 41:24

What did you say? The ultimate distance of inequality. We're trying to be like Jesus, but we have a long way to go. There's a big gap.

SPEAKER_03

41:25 - 42:58

So the last question really is something we've already talked about, but it's more on the positive, a church that's getting successful and getting established. How do we best measure success progress or spirituality in the church of Jesus Christ? Are there outward indications that are better than others? Or are there any outward indications of progress that we're really making a difference in people's lives? So it would help somehow be a tangible outward measurement of how we're doing with inward spirituality, inward commitment, inward growth, inward coming under Christ. Because here in these chapters it looks like the one indication they mentioned when the church is getting more fully established is baptism. There were people getting baptized And baptism, hopefully outwardly, symbols a lot of stuff that's happening inside with the doctrine of Christ. And maybe light baptism, something that we've mentioned is the sacrament. Is the sacrament? Is an interest to participate in ordinances and covenants? At least somewhat of an outward symbol that we hope something's going on inside with the spiritual lives of people connecting to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Are there other thoughts you see in this chapter that you would think about with, how do we measure progress in the church in effective ways?

SPEAKER_02

42:58 - 43:21

That last general conference was so focused on the temple, people using those temples and, and boy, what, what, what sister you make said, I can't stop thinking about going and making comments with God about how we're going to take care of each other. Could be an outward measure or we're using the temples. We're going to the temple is the temple getting into us.

SPEAKER_01

43:21 - 44:57

You might say, I'm impressed with Alma's example here in chapter four. One, he's aware of these situations. He's mindful of what's happening to the inequality really touches him. It says he began to be very sorrowful. And then Three, he knows he can't do it all. What is it that Elder Oaks said once in that taught good, better best? The number of good things we can do far exceeds the time available to accomplish them. He cannot do everything he would like to do. So he focuses in on bearing pure testimony. He gives up what I think would be it job with more perks. the chief judge spot, and he decides to focus in on teaching. I find it interesting that as chief judge, he could probably make new laws to make people be righteous. Let me pile on some laws that will Maybe corner you or force you into fixing what's wrong, but he wants people like we talked about earlier. He wants people to choose what's right. Not be forced to do what's right. He knows how the two roles he has that it's the high priest job that is actually going to make a difference. in changing people's hearts and persuading them to use their agency to choose equality. So maybe to answer your question, am I like Alma in all of these ways?

SPEAKER_02

44:57 - 45:19

I had a sister once raised her hand in a class and talk about how much the end of verse 15 meant to her. where it says he began to be very sorrowful nevertheless the spirit of the Lord did not fail him. And she wept with that verse. That he won't fail you, he didn't fail Alma, he won't fail us.

SPEAKER_03

45:20 - 47:42

One of the experiences I had that I think reinforces what we've been talking about for me is a discussion I had with a leader of the church once when I asked him the question, how do we measure success effectively? And I think there are a lot of possibilities and I've enjoyed exploring possibilities with you today on how do we measure if faiths working? How do we measure if repentance is working? You have any hope that we got a finger on the pulse. It was such an intriguing instructive answer this leader gave me that I've been pondering upon, and I find it very scriptural, so I feel comfortable sharing it. He alluded to the time period that he was a stake president, and he would visit various words, and had that kind of question in mind, like, how's this word doing? Do we have any indication besides positive reports about how they're doing? do any of our many, many numbers really reflect anything about the spiritual pulse of a people or a ward. And I was struck by his quick clear answer. He said, when I want to find out the spiritual well-being of a ward, I look at their fast-offering contributions. And that's all they're like, oh, wow, that's it. You look at their fast dog ring contribution. So I can go to the temple without paying any fast offerings. They don't ask me about my fast offerings. They ask about, do I pay timing? But again, I wonder maybe tying back to sister U-Banks thoughts. If I really understand and take those covenant seriously, do I find myself generously giving in a lot of different areas of my life because of the abundance of mercy I find flowing from the Lord into my life. as a result of that. And it seems like here, those who are getting it and those who aren't getting it in the church are those who seem to be yoked with Christ, serious about that covenant in that relationship and let that spill over into so many generous areas of their life in other ways and their relationships with all kinds of people that they might have the blessing to experience or encounter life with.

SPEAKER_01

47:42 - 48:04

I love that, Nate, because A fast offering is between you and the Lord. It's not, oh, I want to go to the temple, so I'm going to do this. There's a spiritual check there. I want to use my agency to choose equality in my sphere, right, in my little piece of Zion.

SPEAKER_03

48:04 - 48:47

Not spelling it out. not micromanaged a free will offering of what you feel there is appropriate for your situation. And maybe that goes with what thoughts president Nelson was thinking about when he said one of the easiest ways to identify a true follower of Jesus Christ is how compassionately that person treats other people. And is that some degree that Christ is working in us when we are compassionate, when we're generous, when we are committed ourselves to being overcomers of inequality, wherever they might manifest themselves, unrighteously in our lives?

SPEAKER_02

48:47 - 49:02

We have a hymn about that. By this, shall I am in? No. The year my disciples could have been a lot of different measures. This is how you know, this is what Jesus said. If you have love or to another, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01

49:02 - 49:25

This discussion has reminded me of a quote from Joseph Smith. I'm sure both of you recognize. He said the never we get to our Heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls, we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, cast their sins behind our backs. If you would have God have mercy on you, have mercy on one another.

SPEAKER_03

49:27 - 50:16

I love that to me one of the things that I see in the ministry of Joseph Smith is the power of Jesus Christ and the mercy that he wanted to extend to others. I know there were times Joseph was frustrated and upset and maybe harsh in his language towards some, but think about the return of WWFelps after times of apostasy. I think about other moments where Joseph himself is being stretched to forgive, not only apostates, but maybe others who persecute and to transcend this world through love, the power of the Savior that invites even his prophets into that painful path of discipleship that helps you overcome. Through Christ and become a being of love.

SPEAKER_02

50:17 - 50:29

He didn't burn bridges. What's the beautiful WWE Phelps friends at first or friends again at last? Come now dear brother for the war is passed and friends at first or friends again at last. So what was?

SPEAKER_01

50:29 - 50:57

Yeah. Nate, this has been wonderful. I love how you formatted this with. Let's go question after question after question. We've never done that before on this show. That was really fun. Before we let you go, let's say I'm on my commute or I'm washing dishes or I'm folding laundry or I'm out on a bike ride and I'm listening to the show. What do you hope I do differently? What do you hope I walk away with?

SPEAKER_03

50:59 - 53:11

As we introduce things today, we talked a little bit about where these chapters ended with Alma committing himself to the holy order of God and preaching the Word of God and leaving the judgment seat, turning it over to a really good man, Nephahah, by committing himself to the preaching of the Word. In a way, every one of us gets the Word through a messenger. Whether that be Mormon, Whether that be Alma, whether that be Joseph Smith. We've talked about today or most importantly today whether that be President Russell M. Nelson. And I would hope that there would be a spirit to deepen and seek and treasure the relationship you have to God through His servants that have written scripturally and that live today and mediate Jesus to us until He mediates that relationship through His spirit and personally. I love the thought from Joseph Smith when he says, Whenever men can find out the will of God and find an administrator legally authorized from God, there is the kingdom of God. It's pretty simple. I am grateful for God's spirit that has helped me find those true messengers in the Book of Mormon that were really preparatory to anchoring me in the living legal administrator of God, a living prophet. that the book is good to the degree it helps you find, the living, or a call the living vessel that can administer Christ to me. Knowing that in the old thing coming into the priesthood, if you don't receive the servant and all honesty in truth, you can't receive Christ. and I hope that's something to think about and continue to ponder on and let this book be a great catalyst in your connection to Jesus and to his living authorized servants on the earth today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

53:11 - 53:40

Dr. Williams, what a joy. What a joy. BYU Idaho is blessed to have you there. Occasionally, I think President Meredith might tune into our show. So, President Meredith, if you're out there, one BYU Idaho is absolutely amazing. We should send our children to Rexberg and two, take care of our Dr. Williams. Elder Meredith, he's a great soul.

SPEAKER_03

53:42 - 54:33

Thank you so much, YouTube made me feel so comfortable. But an amazing experience it is to go back to this text, read it a hundred times in this last month, and to see how shallow you still are. And that there are still a lot of pathways and corridors you haven't really explored yet in the Book of Mormon. Been quite a blessing. So thank you, both of you. I look up to you. I admire what you do. and the influence you have, I was doing the math in my head and getting a little petrified thinking of the number of people that actually listen to this, thinking, I'm quadrupling 30 years of teaching experience in three hours. It's always a privilege to talk about the book more. It's not a burden just get over yourself. That's what I got to remember. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01

54:33 - 54:48

Our listeners all over the world have been blessed today. And those of you listening, come over to YouTube and let Dr. Williams know where you're listening from. It's really fun to show our guests the reach they are having.

SPEAKER_02

54:48 - 54:58

Thank you so much. I just wish that we could find maybe a video tape of that LOUP you did when you were on Rick's College basketball team.

SPEAKER_03

54:58 - 55:14

Hey, there was no LOUP. It was a one-handed wide open zone that barely made it in. I'm still calling it a dog. But it may have rattled a little bit in the cylinder. There, but there was definitely no alley here.

SPEAKER_02

55:14 - 55:15

Well, I've had a dumb.

SPEAKER_03

55:15 - 55:17

My hand was barely above the rim.

SPEAKER_02

55:17 - 55:25

Yeah, but my dunk was on a rim that said Fisher Price on the back. So it's just not that bad.

SPEAKER_03

55:25 - 55:30

I hope you pulled the back bone off. I'm not on it for a little while.

SPEAKER_01

55:30 - 56:58

Feel well, not to be cheesy, but today was a slam dunk. It was, it was a, it's a, it was excellent. We want to thank Dr. Nate Williams for being with us today. It has been a joy to walk through these chapters. We want to thank our Executive Producer, Shannon Swanson, our sponsors, David and Verla Swanson, and we always, every episode. We remember our founder, Steve Swanson. We hope you'll join us next week. We're going to start Alma's Reactivation tour. on follow him. Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode's transcript and show notes are available on our website. Follow him.co. That's follow him.co. On our website, you'll also find our two books, finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the old and New Testament. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won't find anywhere else. If you'd like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nilsson, Will Stoketon, Crystal Roberts, Ari Elcuadra, and Anabel Sourntson.

SPEAKER_00

56:58 - 57:10

Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.