Transcript for #1510 - George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell

Great to see you in person.

I changed quite a bit. I had not really given it much thought at all. You know, probably the same level of curiosity as most people. You go about your life. You pay your bills. You go to work. You love your family. And it's always out there somewhere. I wonder what the deal is on there. But not had not really dwelled on it until it was a day in 1987 into the studio comes a guy named John Lear. And I had heard sort of a little bit about him. His family was famous as dad developed the Lear Jet, the eight track tape. John had run for the state Senate, and he had a certain amount of credibility with our news organization, Kaylee, STV, because he had helped us break a really big story. And the story was the stealth fighter. The F-1-17. He had told my boss, Ned Day, managing editor about this amazing plane that was invisible to radar flying up in Tonapai in Area 51. We had an interest in Area 51, not UFO related, but Ned broke that story. It went national. So John Lear comes into the station one day with a stack of what turned out to be UFO documents. He plops him on Ned's desk and says, Ned, this is going to be the next big story, the biggest story in history. It's a UFO cover up. Aliens are here. Technologies have been recovered. Ned takes a look at it and says, I'm not doing this story. If it was true, I'd already know, no about it. This is crazy. Well, I'm eavesdropping as I tend to do. I'm a curious person. So I, as he's going out, I said, let me take a look at this material. And I looked at it. I thought, well, this is kind of interesting. At the time, I was producing and hosting this little public affair show. 30 minute interview show. It would air a Sunday morning at 6 o'clock. Nobody watches it. It would be interviewing a city councilman, a county commissioner. what the heck I'll put lear on there and I let him go and he told me this big scenario about secret treaties with aliens and a recovered technology and a giant cover up some of the information sounded outrageous some of it seemed like it would be worth checking out suddenly the phone starts ringing off the hook I'm getting calls about people though who was that guy what was the deal on that UFO stuff is it real I had him on again six months later the response was bigger had him on a third time with a guy named Bill Cooper I regret that. Um, and he told him and even more elaborate conspiracy.

He tied in the JFK assassination and everything bases on the moon aliens are there right now.

He had the scenario where he had seen these documents when he was in the Navy, and he's going to tell the world about it, and he's going to go away. Well, every time he told the story, the documents got bigger and bigger, and anybody who criticized Bill Cooper became part of the secret government, including me. So we do this third show with Lear, and he hints that he knows a guy who might be going to work out at Area 51 and know something about alien technology. That guy turns out to be Bob Lazar, but Lear didn't give me the name at that time. A couple of months later, I am anchoring the five o'clock news on KLS and we have a nightly or evening interview segment five minute segment live interview our guest doesn't show up and we're scrambling to find somebody to fill that hole and I thought about Lear so I called him up not knowing what had been going on in Lazar's life or Lears life and I said hey is your that UFO guy told me about his here-round what do you do in interview? Just turned out that Bob had been through the ringer and the lot of stuff going on in his life, he felt threatened. And he said, yes, we had to black out his face. We do this interview and he spills the basics of the story. I worked out there at a place called S4. I saw nine flying saucers in an underground base. This is technology that came from somewhere else. I'm in fear for my life. Holy cow, the phones start ringing off the hook. My news director comes rushing in. The station manager is that for real, what's the deal on that? And we realize we had touched the pulse of the public in a way that I didn't really understand. We arranged to go meet Bobless R. My news director Bob stole all one eye. That following weekend and put him through a paces where we would ask him questions about his background and how he got the job. We spent a couple hours with him and we walked out of that meeting thinking, holy shit, what if this is true? You know, this is really risky for us as journalists at risky for our personal reputations. If it blows up in our faces, and we do this story, and it would really damage the reputation of our news organization, which is KLS is a jewel. It's always been a leader in Las Vegas, one of the best TV news operations in the country. We're putting a lot on the line. Well, look, we decide, let's take our time. Let's look into this guy's story. And in order to understand, Lazar would have to look at the bigger picture of UFOs. So I started a cram course on uphology and I read everything and I spent eight months like cramming for a final exam that never happened. I read everything. I interviewed people that same year, move on, it's international symposium in Las Vegas and they're all the worlds UFO people came right to me. I got to interview them, traveled around, went to Los Alamos. Lazar took us into the lab. We took cameras in there. He walked us around. waving to people. We didn't even have to stop for security. Took us into the lab like it was a rabbit going through its own burrow. He knew of his way around. We were allowed to take a camera in there. We put those stories together. Put them on the air in November and man it just went through the roof. every night of these nine this nine parts series people got the the audience got bigger phones ring and off the hook people calling giving us information suddenly it's on something called paranet which was sort of a precursor to the internet and it was huge and and it changed my life for sure I had no idea that there was so many people out there interested in the topic And I was hooked. And I really got hooked on those are not only because his story, personally, you know, I was interested in him. We became friends. I saw what happened to him after that live interview in the seven and a half months before we went and I revealed his identity. that people really mess with them. I mean, you cannot convey what it was like, how weird it was then, breaking into his house, leaving the windows open, messing with things in his home, breaking into his car, leaving the doors and windows down, just messing with his head. And you think that was the government that was doing that. Yeah, I do. I think so. And then, so I had put out a call to people, hey, I want other people to come forward.

I'm actually speaking. Yes. I am actively seeking information from the public. If you ever worked in Area 51 or S4, you know anything about this, you're at Nellis Air Force Base, reach out to me. So I started getting calls and six people right in a row. who had talked to me on the phone and offered to give me information were visited right after the call. One of them was a guy who did tax returns for people at NLS Air Force Base and he had got to know these guys really well and got information about crashes. There was a guy who was a golf pro at NLS who had gone on road trips with officers and told him about this weird stuff out at 351 that seemed to be from somewhere else. He gets visited and told the shut up. There was a lady who worked in the court system. A cop told me about her, and I talked around the phone, and she had worked at the court system, but before she had worked for a company called Holmes and Narbour, which is a defense contractor. And she said she sat in as a stenographer in these meetings and heard these conversations between the government contractors and Air Force officials about crashed saucers and they would after the meeting they took take the tape out of the typewriter and and destroy it and take all the notes and she agreed to tell me the story it was just a tiny piece of the story the next day she's visited by these two guys in suit. They tell her, um, look, you're still subject to your security clearance. I hope you know that. And then they said, we know you travel to L.A. to see your daughter and we know she comes here. It's a big desert out there. It'd be terrible if something happened to either one of you. This lady is scared of shitless. She didn't make that stuff up. So six people who had offered to give me information on the phone one right after another get visited and it it made me mad. It also made me mad that dealing with, you know, trying to fill in pieces of Bob Lazar's life. I know there's some gaping holes. I know it better than anybody. I've had to deal with it for 31 years. But I always thought if he worked at Los Alamos in classified projects and a scientific or technical capacity, then it would make sense that he could get hired into a program, like us four, as somebody who thinks outside the box. Despite personal shortcomings or whatever, they might bring somebody like him in to help them crack a problem that they hadn't been able to resolve themselves. So I focused on Los Alamos. I knew he had been there. I talked to people who remembered him from being there, but the lab kept telling me no record of him. He's never here. And then I can show them. We'll look. I've got the Los Alamos newspaper. It's a small town paper. There it is on the front page. A front page story. Bob Lazar, physicist, Mason facility Los Alamos lab. It's a story about his jet car. No, still have no records of him. And then I found his name in the phone book from the era when he was there. He's in the lab phone book. He had been hired by a company called Kirkmeyer, which is a company that's a headhunter that fills positions at Los Alamos and places like that. So great. I'll reach out to Kirkmeyer. They said, yeah, we hired him. Yeah, we've got records. Can I get it? Can I get his employment records that would show where we went to school, whatever information you guys had? Yes. couple weeks go by, nothing. Um, couple more weeks go by. I call them again. I start writing them. I've got to stack a letters that thick. It went on for two and a half years and finally by the end of it. They said he was never here. We don't have any records. That, that piss me off. It made me mad. And I think that that is really what got me hooked in the story. Um, is that I was being jacked around by government and national facilities like that.

That's how he's explained to me.

That's my understanding as well. And you know, it's always been the most problematic part of his background and it's where a lot of people in the bubbles are story. That's where they stop.

Oh, he's a brilliant guy. But here's I had always told him, and I, you know, Bob, you're my friend. I want to have a conversation with you about these claimed degrees, because I didn't believe that he'd ever sat down. You know, in those days, you go to a college like MIT or Caltech and get a degree. You've got to take classes and something other than science. I could not imagine Bob was taking an English lit class to save his life. But he is a brilliant guy. He, I'll give you an example. In April, COVID thing is raging. My wife and I are staying at home. We're getting packages delivered for food and things of that sort. I'm a little worried. They didn't know about contact, whether you can get it off a cardboard boxes or whatever. And I mentioned a Bob in a phone conversation. I'm thinking about buying one of these UV screener systems. He goes way to second. Don't buy one. I think I've got the parts that I can make you one in my garage. And a week later, it arrives. There's think he's got it in his garage. Handmade this big scanner with these UV things that they'll work to just whip it up in his garage.

You also got the flamethrower though. Luzar made a flamethrower. This is before your buddy Elon made flamethrower. It's a massive.

Well Bob admitted from the beginning and remember with the first interview we did I think it was June of 89 so it was a little after we did that live interview but months before. We went with his ID. And that was really re-recorded in case something happened to him. He was afraid he was going to be killed. There were a lot of really weird things going on. And I was worried about it, too. I wanted to get it on the record in case he disappeared. So we recorded this long interview. And always, he downplayed stuff like that. That's an example. I saw something that was that size. I don't believe it was nearly. And it was just a glimpse, me, where they're messing with my head. He also admits that they did mess with this head. that he had to uh... they underwent some kind of uh... hypnosis that they made him drink this weird green liquid probably l.s.d.

You know, the various scenarios have popped up over the years about why he came forward. There are people who believe he just made it up. He was trying to make money or he wanted attention. There are people who believe it's government disinformation to distract attention. from something else that was going on out there. Or they believe both of them, which, you know, they would seem to be mutually exclusive. Bob would admit that he had no business being there. That they may be that there were much more qualified people to work on those kind of things. Maybe he was a guy who thinks outside the box, who might give a new slant on trying to figure this stuff out that they had had for decades and had not had not been able to do.

They figured, all right, in case he blabs, we can discredit this guy like that. When we're done with him, there are things in his background. He likes the blow things up. He likes explosives. He had a pirate flag on his house at the time that I first met him. He liked machine guns. He had an illegal firework show that would go out in the desert every year that became a world-class event. He got into some legal trouble after he had worked out there. So there's a lot of things in his life they could use to discredit him. The people who still maintained that Bob was a disinformation plot, it was meant to distract attention out from something else going on out there. Whoever came up with that idea should be fired, because as a result of Bob coming forward at that story, Area 51 is now known all over the world. I'm sorry, but the Bob was our version of that tale is the one that prevailed. It's known everywhere. It's been a movies and books and TV shows. It's launched a thousand different, you know, projects, products like that, the hat, the Las Vegas 51s. Our AAA baseball team became the 51s because the Lizard story. The ET Highway is created and christened by our governor. You know, that story, that verse and that he told is now known all over the world, whether detractors like it or not. And if somebody was trying to distract attention away from something going on at Area 51, it failed miserably, because tens of thousands of people made the trek out there. Even today, 31 years later, every single day, there's somebody with binoculars or a scope or something looking for whatever is flying around out there. Every major news organization in the world, after given me nothing but grief, has made a beaten up path to Area 51's door. All of them, they have all done it. And Bob's story about reverse engineering craft from somewhere else is now part of a much larger and current series of events that we can get into.

He knew there was a place called S4. There had been no particles about that. No mention. I looked for it. You know, I called Melos Air Force Base and asked him, do you have a place called S4 anywhere on the range? Yeah. In fact, we have more than one. So can you tell me where they are? No. Can you tell me what goes on there? No. Well, there was a facility at Papus. I think it was built into the side of the mountain. And you can see the dirt road on the old satellite photos. Why were people going down there? And then, of course, the video. He goes out there with his friends when he thinks he's going to be killed or he's going to disappear in three weeks in a row. You've talked about it on this program. And they videotaped and all the witnesses who were there have verified it and it was not over Area 51. It was over Papus, which officially has no facility. Nothing has ever been there. Bob knew a lot of stuff that he couldn't have known otherwise. And it's been proven over

No, and so it was called a cloud chamber test. So he had this stuff. I know people don't believe that it exists, and he never had any of it. They're welcome to believe it, but he had, he had a piece of it. He didn't steal it. The only time I ever saw it was in his lead shield, round disk. And he had it for a while. It was in an office.

I think it's stable. I don't think it's radio active. That's how it was shipped to him.

Yeah, and I showed it and I had it in the background in one of our stories just out of an inside joke and sitting in there. But Bob used to keep it in front of a particle accelerator that he had built at his home. Every non-scientist, every non-scientist, built a particle accelerator in their home. And he had it there when he thought he was going to be killed. It was sort of a defense mechanism for him. He had it right in front. All he had to do is flip a switch. And he thought it could explode. I think you meant to scare people from coming and trying to take them out. But this cloud chamber test was the only time I think he ever took it out of this thing. And I got there right as the experiment ended, where they had this little chamber and it bent light. Now, they show me the video. I don't pretend to be a scientist. I don't try to be an expert on things I really don't know. But it looked to me like light was bending in this experiment, which shouldn't be able to do. It's like a laser that bent.

Bob would just assume that that goes away, that people don't tell about it. Is this it? Yeah, that's it.

That's the disc that's the top of the disc.

You didn't see it, band. We replay that again, too. It's the only piece of the tape that still exists, but it's not the key part of that.

You're not seeing that here. This is the only piece of the tape that still exists, but it's not the center piece.

Here, I mean, I wanted to demonstrate that it had been the recording get exist at one point, but that's the only piece that's left of it. I'm the guy who got the tape.

I got a full tape where it is. Is it in your house somewhere? I doubt it. I mean, look, he's looked. I've looked. Where could it be?

Yeah, it's a really big deal. I mean, I've got thousands of tapes from that era and I have saved them all and I've moved them around and then I'd use them in different productions. I can't find it. I know that that is very unsatisfactory for people in there. I've been accused of making it up.

But kind of funny. The aftermath of Bob coming forward, of course, it messed with his life in a big way. And, you know, he was not all that much of a, he was sort of a semi-reclose anyway. But the stuff that goes on here even 31 years later, you know what, it's like these fanboys. He's got people that got the Bobless Art Disease really bad. And they still deal with them. They spend their days now. All these years later, focusing on Bob that two weeks ago, somebody put something on Twitter. It was an interview. Some of these guys had gone to New Mexico to find people that had worked with Lissar a long time ago and then tried to dig up dirt. Hey, do you remember working with Bob or you knew him back then? Yeah. Did he have teenagers working for him at his photo shop? Yeah. You ever seen anything weird with him in little girls? No, the guy says. And then the interviewer says, what we heard that he tried to solicit a 14-year-old girl to work at a brothel. And then they put this, the guy says, I don't know anything about that. They put this on Twitter with the headline, Bob Lazar solicited 14-year-old girl to go into prostitution.

People who've got it bad. And there are so many of them that every day they post something about Bobo's arts. Really?

years ago about disinformation. You know, do you guys have to see disinformation out there to discredit the UFO story? He said, we don't have to plan anything. UFO people do it all to themselves. I mean, they're nuts. Yeah. I had, I got a PhD in uphology in essence by working on that story and then subsequent stories because the public had reacted in such a way. All right, I'm going to stick with it. But what you run into in the topic It's no wonder that you've gone back and forth on it. So if I. Yeah, questioning whether is this a good use of my time because there's so many of them are absolutely nuts and psychopaths and they make stuff up and and they also make a living doing it like Jamie and I were watching H and aliens the other day and we're laughing we're like like what are the qualifications of being a UFO researcher?

the topic itself discourages serious inquiry by journalists by scientists because you have to wait through so much crap you know ninety ninety five percent of it is total crap or it is honest misidentifications of prosaic objects but that five percent. It's really interesting and it's why the government is now you know looking into it once again.

Very weird for me. Now it's, you know, 33 years that I've been chasing this and I've become And I don't want to talk about me, but I mean, I've become the UFO reporter, whether I like it or not. I'm not the UFO reporter. I'm a reporter who is interested in that. The UFO stories I've done and all that time, it's been a lot, but as a percentage of all the reports that I do, it's small. I'm a news guy. I chase bad guys mostly for the I team, but those those UFO stories have gone all over the world. The UFO field is so polluted with liars and exaggerators and fast buck artists and people who appropriate this story for their own political agendas to make money to get attention. It takes 90% of your energy just to wade through the crap and get to the heart of facts. And there aren't that many of them. And to figure out who's telling the truth, who's reliable, who's honestly trying to pursue the story and get to the truth. It's a task that is difficult and I don't blame other journalists for not given it a fair shake because it's not something you do in a week. I remember saying to myself, this is how cocky I was in the beginning is, you know, I'm reading these UFO books and boy, this field is a mess. But there is some good information in here. Give me six months and I'll have this figured out. Well, there's three, three years later. I know less than I did now. I know I have a lot more facts in my head, but all the big questions would not have answers to them. I don't think anybody does who they are, where they're from, why they're here, what they're interested in us, what the long term agenda is. We don't know that. And I don't think anybody does. I've gone pretty far, far high up the food chain.

It's a mix. The most immediate reaction as astonishment because of all the years I'm chasing this everywhere you go you run into brick walls when dealing with the government that's really what got my attention and where I wanted to focus because I can't go out and wait for UFOs to show up although I've done that but I wanted to follow the paper trail the government has this whole big long history of documents that they exchanged reports memos incident reports about UFOs before the freedom of information act became the law of the land and they're very candid with each other. They're not that way anymore. They hide stuff. But back in those days, they were candid that this is from somewhere else. This is real. It's not fictitious. We need to look into this. We got to make sure it's not Russians or Chinese. And we have figured out who's got this technology because we don't. It's not ours. And then, of course, when Freedom of Information Act became the law of the land, all these agencies that had lied about it, no, we don't have any UFO reports have to cough up thousands and thousands of pages. They have absolutely stonewalled this and lied to the public for a long time. So to finally see them admit, yes, we're taking it seriously, which I have known all along. Of course, they have to study this. Unknown craft, float over our nuclear missile bases, disarm the missiles. We have fighter jets go after them. They leave them in the dust. They can fly circles around our best technology. They mess with nuclear power plants, nuclear weapons, nuclear facilities like Los Alamos. It is a national security issue and they have been paying attention to it. They just haven't been telling us. So for the New York Times to come out in December 2017 and say, yeah, there was a program. And yeah, they've been looking at UFOs. Oh, by the way, it's all done now. It's still a mixture of lies and some glimpses of truth, but I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. I never thought I'd see this much progress. The last two and a half years has been the most astonishing time in the history of the subject. And I'll take it, Joe, there are stuff bubbling right under the surface now that is going to rock our world, I think, in the next year or so.

I think he has been briefed. Yeah. I think he has been briefed more than once. You know, I think because he watches Tucker Carlson and Tucker's gut for UFO people on there once a month, does he? Yeah, he's been he's had for the last year. He said UFO people once a month or so, Lua Lazando and Chris Melon and people like that and I thought that would if anything that would get Trump's attention because you know that's what he pays attention.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So this happened to tell me the stories. 1975, they called it in the northern tier case. So we have a string of bases up by the Canadian border all the way across the US from Maine to Montana, nuclear missophacilities. They were ready to go in the darkest days of the Cold War. Those missiles, ICBMs, are ready to go, aimed at Moscow and other places. And in 1975, 74 and 75, one after another, these bases were visited. They thought they were mystery helicopters or something lights in the sky right over the missiles. In a couple of cases, they disable the missiles. If we had gone to war, we wouldn't have had those missiles being able to fire. There are some indications that the launch control codes were interfered with. And then we scrambled jets, the military personnel had reported this up, and the things go away. We can't catch them. Whatever they were, it clearly is a threat to national security.

Yes. And those documents you can find them. Washington Post broke the story in the 70s. They had attained some of these documents after freedom of information that came forward. And then the the most recent study, Bass. All sap that we can talk about, they also really focused on the northern tier cases and they looked up some of those guys. They found some of the nuclear missile officers in security personnel and interviewed him and they told the story all over again. There was a guy named Robert Hastings, UFOs and Nukes has been his specialty for the last 30 years. He wrote a book, made a film, it's chilling. Part of what has happened is it not only happened to us, the US, but in Russia. So once I got UFO fever and became a UFO reporter, I traveled all over the world. And one of the places I went twice was Russia. After the fall of the Soviet Union, it occurred to me that maybe we might be able to learn more from the Russians about what our government knows about UFOs than our government will ever tell us. And I'm at a Russian physicist who was here in the U.S. to lecture on disarmament issues at national labs. He was getting ready to go back to Russia. He had been the National Security Advisor to Boris Yeltson. He was the National Security Advisor to the Russian Parliament. He had taught Russian cosmonauts how to spot American nuclear submarines from space he was connected so I had a beer with him at the suggestion of a US congressman and I said hey Nikolai you ever hear any of your guys in Russia at high levels talk about UFOs now can't can't really think that I that doesn't ring a bell we have another beer and he says you know I do have a guy at the KGB who told me that they had looked into it for a while And I thought, well, they had just, the KGB had just released its Oswald files. That maybe this is a golden opportunity to find out what they know. Because they are a superpower. They have nuclear weapons. They would have seen the same things we've been seeing. So I went to Russia. We sent Nikolai over to Vakta Moscow, gave him a stipend, and his instructions were fine people who were in a position to know, high up in the military, or the government, who have never talked about this before. And it took about eight months for him to report back and get all these people lined up, and then I went to Russia and met him and interviewed him. and these were former military guys that was a guy named Colonel Borosakalov who was a gold mine of information. He told us about a previously unknown study, probably the biggest. UFO study in the history of the world. For 10 years from 78 to 88, the Russian military empire, every military unit in Russia, in their whole military global, if they saw any ball of light, anomalous aircraft, UFO, anything weird like that, they had to report it to the KGB, and they're all that information went to one desk at the Ministry of Defense. Colonel Sokolab was that desk, and they had thousands of reports that had never been made public before. He told me about 45 different incidents were Russian war planes and chase UFOs. Couldn't catch them. Three of the instances these UFOs shot them down. Two of those pilots died. And after that he said, The order went out, look, if you see these things, don't mess with them. He said their study was for a practical reason. These craft could do things that the Russians could not, and they wanted to get an advantage over the Americans in terms of stealth technology. So they wanted to do what people in reverse engineering programs are doing, figure out how the UFOs work, so they could have an advantage over us. I had to smuggle some of these documents back. If I had been caught with this stuff, because some of it was classified. If I'd been caught, I'd still be in a Gulog somewhere, but I got it back. I shared it with some people who eventually found its way into the US government's hands, and it tells us basically a lot of what we now know about our own government, that they have always taken this seriously. And one of the incidents, I'm sorry, made the long way around on that story, was an ICBM base in the Ukraine. Colonel Socrates says that a giant UFO appeared over this base. These are missiles that are trained to go to New York and Los Angeles. They're very serious stuff there. It's a very secure facility. Giant UFO appears over this base. It splits into pieces. And then it melts back apart. And it performs this dazzling display for a couple of hours, the bases on high alert. And all of a sudden, the nuclear control facilities lights up like a Christmas tree. And whenever this thing was, it entered the launch control codes. The missiles were enabled. They start firing up. They're ready to go. And then proof UFO goes away. The whole thing shuts down. He goes back to normal. Colonel Sokolov said his team. He and his team sent there to investigate it. They took the machines apart. Could not figure out what it had done. And he told me on camera. We think that they were sending us a message that these are your most powerful weapons. But we're not impressed. same kind of thing happened here. We don't like to admit it, but there's a pretty strong paper trail that it really did happen. Now what is a bigger national security issue than that? Or like the TikTok. You've got a nuclear power carrier there and other warships around it. And you've got these strange radar sight sightings for a couple of weeks right off the coast of the U.S. This is an intruder. And even though these aliens, whatever they are, are not firing beams and wiping out our cities, you have to consider it a threat. That's the job of our defense department. They don't know what it is, but they know it shouldn't be there, and it's not ours. And I think that's what the program is going on right now. It's a legitimate national security issue. It deserves to be investigated in spite of the larger social implications that we're not alone.

The premise that the U.S. government would tell you, all right, look, we're going to release these videos reluctantly. Liu El Azando is the guy that got him released and then the U.S. government formally released them a couple of months ago. The idea that the U.S. government would release it. The Pentagon says these are unidentified. You know, if it was a bird or a jet engine, the pilots would not have the kind of reaction that they had that you can hear on the audio. Our government does not tell Congress, the Pentagon doesn't go to the Senate Intelligence Committee, show them those videos and say, yeah, it's an unidentified if it isn't. And, you know, the reaction of the pilots, the fact that they would were forced to release it to begin with, suggest that it really is unidentified.

I think they were forced to, and some props to Tom Delong. I know you guys had a pretty spirited conversation when he was here, but he created an organism. Lou Elizondo, who ran that program, came forward and brought with him those videos. I saw them two days after Lou Elizondo stepped on a stage with Tom and said, I was in charge of the program. He and Chris Melon have been sort of the engineers of getting that story into the New York Times. That changed everything. As I said, the last two and a half years, everything has turned on its head. The New York Times covers the story. The result is other media covered as well. They've been ignoring it forever. And that allowed people to keep these secrets. That pressure meant that people in Congress started asking questions. Two days after the story came out, I interviewed Senator Harry Reid, who was the one who got the money to create that program that became a tip. And he said his phone had been ringing off the hook from other members of Congress who were now suddenly interested. I didn't know those of program they're telling him, how do we learn more about this? It started a series of closed door briefings on Capitol Hill that continued to this day. The pilots like Dave Fraver were hauled before Congress first in front of the staff of the Senate Intelligence and then Senate Armed Services and then the elected members. These senators who get briefed on it and they were impressed and they wanted more pilots to come in. So it's been going on for two and a half years and two weeks ago. Now, excuse me, about a month ago now, The culmination of Senator Marco Rubio, who is now the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, drops his bill. And it's the budget for the intelligence budget for next year. And he includes a UFO provision in there. We want Congress wants to have a mechanism set up where we get regular briefings from the Pentagon on UFOs. That's an astonishing change of events. It's because of the media pressure and then congressional interest. It made it more acceptable for everybody to pursue the subject matter. It's kind of out of the shadows. And the Pentagon has reacted in fits and starts. So sometimes as they said to the New York Times, that program ended. had nothing to do with UFOs. At first, they said it did, then they said it didn't. They've admitted Luel is on to worked on the program, then they said he didn't. They've said that the ASAP, which is the other program, the mother program, that became a tip that that had nothing to do with UFOs, what it did. So they continued to sort of lie and obfuscate and muddy the waters. But the fact is that there's too much momentum from media and Congress and the public to hide this anymore.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I think you got a, I think you got a little misled on it.

So some of it, some of it stems back to Lazar. So we did that story in the series in 89. One of the first people to call me after that was a guy I'd never heard of before named Robert Bigelow, a billionaire. He calls me up and says, I was really interested in that. I've been interested in UFOs for a long time. Can I help you? I mean, can he help fund me? I said, I work for a TV station. I don't need any help. But he was not to be deterred. He then reached out to Lazar. They had a little, he started meeting with him and pumping up for information. And that really amplified, of Bigelowe's lifelong interest in it. He created something called nids, the National Institute for Discovery Science, which he, he made a science advisory board of the best and the brightest in the both the UFO field and the field of consciousness. So they're looking at two questions. Is there life elsewhere in the universe? Is it here? And it is do humans survive after death? And he assembled this board, a former CIA guys, two former astronauts, men who had walked on the moon, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Dr. Hellputoff, physicist, psychologist, a really a brilliant little think tank to take on these two topics. I was allowed to be a fly on the wall for some of it, not all of it, but some. And I told Harry Reed about it in 1996, and he said, can I go? And so he showed up and said it on the meetings, and he was kind of hooked. Harry Reid was the first person I told about Bobless Art outside of our newsroom. When I before we aired the stories, he had, I'd known him since he first ran for Congress in 1982, and then he becomes Senate Majority Leader. So he always had an interest in it, but he didn't want it to be known publicly. That does not help your reelection chances. So in 2005, We write the book about Skinwalker Ranch. Nids, that team bought the ranch. They were on the property for seven or eight years at that point and had hundreds of different incidents that they investigated. They approached it like scientists would. They looked for prosaic explanations. They looked for gravity anomalies. They looked for psychoactive plants. Could there be hallucinations caused by magic mushrooms or something? Are the witnesses lying? They investigated the background of the family that had lived there. And they found out that they could not be explained that all the range of activity there. So it was not only the activity we're talking about. Well, it starts with UFOs because that's what got their attention. The UN to basin in Northeastern Utah has always been UFO hotspot. Everybody who lives there basically has seen them. Balls of light, orbs, structured craft, daylight, nighttime. In 1976, a guy named Dr. Frank Salzbury wrote a book about it. The Utah UFO display, and he took hundreds of these cases that have been collected by the locals. There was a local science teacher named Junior Hicks. who, because he had taught generations of kids science in that area, when they people would see UFOs, they'd call up Junior Hicks. And he went and went and go and investigate him. And he had had hundreds and hundreds of files. He gave them over to this guy, Saul'sbury, who wrote a book about it. And he said, these are real. You know, they're going on. But Junior Hicks would disregard any high-strange, in this case, as they came along with the UFOs. Anything weird, big foot. Ghosts, anything like that. He thought it was too incredible and he discarded that. Bigelow buys the ranch. He hears about these stories going on on this one property, flies in, meets with the rancher. And by this time, that rancher and his family had lived on the ranch for 20 months. And they were so scared that he, his wife and his two kids were all sleeping at night on the floor in the same room because it had messed with them. So badly. Their property had had Ghost, type activity, culture guys kind of things, trickster activity. For example, the wife goes shopping to the grocery store. She buys all this food, comes back, puts it on the table, takes out, puts it in the shelves, leaves the room, comes back in, all the foods back in the bag. She would take a shower in the morning, locks the door, puts a towel and a hair brush on the cabinet, gets out of the shower, doors still locked, hair brush and towel are gone. Dad's out in the field. He is a digging a post hole, using a post hole digger, happy piece of equipment. He stops for a second, wipes his brow, looks back and it's gone. And they find it two weeks later up in a tree. They start hearing voices at night in the air, speaking of strange language. They start seeing shapes outside the window at night, big lurking humanoid shapes, hearing heavy footsteps outside, then hearing heavy footsteps inside. Then their animals started being mutilated. Cows. What the tracks will lead out in the snow and then just be gone. Cabs mutilated, cut up with surgical precision, cats wiped out, carved up dogs that were vaporized, hundreds of these incidents. They would see holes in the sky like a great, big hole in the sky and things flying in and out of it. Now this rancher, college educated guy, grounded, strictly religious guy, thinks the government is trying to run off his property. So he's out there at night, lurking with a gun, trying to catch whatever government agents are doing this stuff. And it's not government agents. It was something else. They started seeing UFOs of all shapes and sizes. The first one they saw was like a, they thought it was a winna bago. This ranch is a beautiful place. And it only has one way in and one way out. They see these two lights that look like headlights down in the third homestead. out of this guy get past the house here and get down there. He must be stuck. Let's go down and help him out. The lights start coming toward he and a son. Then they go up into this guy up over the trees and then poof gone. These different kinds of orbs, the white ones that were intelligently controlled, not fireflies, not bugs, blue ones that would go. They seem to touch the fear center in your brain. They get near them. They look like a little bigger than a softball. made out of glass with the swirling blue liquid, scared the hell out of the animals, and then it scared the hell out of the people too. This literally drove them to their knees with fear. These red orbs that would stamp you the cattle. They lost so many cattle that they began to think that they were going to go under. They had these four prized bulls, and I'm jumping around with a lot of stories. They had these four prized bulls, 2,000 pounds each, behemoths, very expensive animals, because they were raising cement to a cattle. Had them in the in the corral, and the husband and wife, they always felt like they're being watched. He says to the wife, as they're driving to town, man, if something happens to one of those bulls, We'll go under, we'll be done. They come back half an hour later, all four of the bulls are gone. They jump out, they're freaking out. Where did they go? Did somebody steal them? Are they rustlers looking around all over the place? In this corral is a metal trailer where they used to store tools. And there's only one door into it. And it's locked with this heavy piece of wire. The door still locked. The wire is still on there. The guy just as a last resort he looks into the grading on top of this trailer. And there's the four bulls inside. Door still locked. They're all crammed in there. Now you could take a fork left. You could have a team of 50 people and they couldn't get those bulls in that trailer. But there there were. He yells to his wife. hey honey they're in here and when he says that the bull's wake up as if out of a trance kick the the door down and all got out the nid steam which had been on the property for a couple years that point Fly in, they'd been in Las Vegas, they fly back in, they look around, they check out the animals, the whole Corral, which is made out of metal, had been magnetized. So whatever technology was used to get those bulls from the Corral into that trailer, left a magnetic signature. They were there on the property, the nids' guys for several years, big alone owned it for 20 years, but eventually they gave up. Whatever this thing was, this intelligence. It did not like being stalked and it played tricks on them. And they never made this stuff public because what are you going to do right a paper about this? Who's going to print it? You can't make a documentary about it because they weren't there with any evidence.

Like for the first 20 months when the rancher is there, they don't have any evidence because he's not a paranormal investigator. They're not taking photos or something. They want it to go away. So they don't have any evidence of that except for what the rancher told them. But then they talk to the larger community. And the same thing has been happening to all the neighbors. The guy lives next door had lost all these cattle as well. Seize the craft. Sometimes these craft would float around. They looked like stealth fighters with Christmas lights around them. floating around silently again again you have an else not not really I mean so big a little puts up cameras all over the property and you had them focused here were some activity it happened before the thing moves over here you you move the pop the cameras and focus there it goes away toward the end of the study whatever it was that was there ripped the one of these cameras would ripped ripped the shreds if they're up on top of a telephone pole 30, 40 feet in the air and there's wires that are secured all the way down the telephone pole and they noticed that one of their cameras goes out. They figured well, there's another camera on another pole that should have a view of whatever it was that tore this up. Some kind of animal, whatever. Well, whatever it was was invisible. And I know it's very frustrating. It certainly was for them and for me to try to write about it in that this thing didn't want to be caught. It wanted to demonstrate it that it was there, but it didn't want to have evidence. The calf that was mutilated was in, I know it's, it's a lot to handle. The calf that was mutilated. It was a Sunday morning. It's 10 o'clock in a quiet morning. It's daylight. The rancher in his wife were there by themselves. They're tagging newborn calves. Tagged their ears. And they tagged this one right by the ranch house. 50 yards from their home. And they go off across the property. It's a clear day. It's unobstructed. Their dog is with them and makes a noise that points him back toward that first calf that they had tagged, and the dog indicates it's something's wrong, and they see the mom cow is dragging its leg and going around in a semi-circle. It's in distress. Like, a run-and-back over there, and this calf had been completely stripped of flesh, nothing left, but a hide and bone. And one of the femur bones have been ripped out and thrown on the side. Well, they call in the nids guys. They bring in trackers. There are no tracks. There's no human tracks, no vehicle tracks, no animal tracks. The thing had been completely stripped of blood. There's not a drop of blood on the ground. It's gone. 75 pounds of meat gone. Again over time period of 30 minutes. Is there a team of commandos that comes in and does that? Where does it go?

Yeah, it's all right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's probably some other places. There's photos on video.

some so some of it is a demonstration I mean it seemed to be a demonstration to get their attention this trickster element has been reported in other places around the world there's no hotspot quite like skinwalker and I know how weird it it sounds there's no spot like that because it's never there's no spot that's been studied to that extent the nids guys were there for well big loan the property for twenty years needs was active for seven or eight then another secret study funded by the government came in under an organization called Bass. That was the money that Reed got. He got $22 million. It went to Bigelow as a contract and they hired all these people and found out all over the world to try to find UFO information, but other related phenomena. Things that wouldn't seem normally to be connected to UFOs, but which are. A guy from the DIA had read the book and became interested and he asked for permission to go to the property. This guy's a double PhD, a brilliant rocket scientist who had seen it and thought there were national security implications. The whole in the sky, in particular, with things coming in and out. He wondered if someone was using technology to make these things happen.

No. Again, that's when the rancher is there by himself. So he's not just not a UFO guy.

Well, let's see. The video of the camera that was torn up by something invisible.

You can't see anything. There's nothing. You can't see anything. You can see before it happens, it's normal and afterward.

I can't remember. But I mean, could that be hoaxed? Yeah, if big a little wanted to. But again, they weren't there in the beginning, at least for nids. They weren't there to try to prove that aliens are visiting. They're just trying to figure out why all this weird stuff is happening in one spot. It mixes in a lot of Native American lore that got mixed in the picture. But it's been going on in that you into Basin for 200 years. Why?

Well, that's what they concluded is it had to have been taken somewhere and slaughtered and then brought back.

But look at all the jagged edges. They said they, so they took samples and they sent them to two pathology labs. Didn't tell the guys what they're looking for. You tell us what you can see. And the pathologist said that two instruments had been used. One was a heavy machete type instrument that had been hacked. And then there was a scalpel that had surgically removed a lot of the flesh underneath.

Well, there's no teeth marks. There are metallic marks.

That's what nids thinks.

Okay. Well, you're looking, I'll tell them about one of the theories about the calculations that Dr. Keller, Dr. Collem Keller, developed was that somebody is tracking the spread of like Mad Cal. maryons through the food supply and that they've been doing it under the guise of UFOs since no one would take UFOs and cattle medallation seriously they just do it in helicopters and they're instead of just stealing these cattle they're tracking how far this these indestructible pre-ons travel through the food supply because it's in cattle it's in pigs it gets so fed into chickens and things of that in feed. It's in deer. It's called chronic wasting disease and in some circles. It's just weird. Well, quite.

Well, it's a variation. Cruts fill Jacob disease, I think, too. So the same kind of things in different species. It is indestructible again. So you hit a deer that's got this and you grind it up and you feed it to pigs. The pigs get it. Yeah. And then it could be passed under other species and it shows up in different ways. Keller her was exploring the idea well whether or not it might be the cause of Alzheimer's or a version of Mad Cowan humans.

It's frustrating too. Yeah. I've been to the ranch, the skinwalker ranch and the basin more than two dozen times. I've never seen anything. I've interviewed the neighbors. I've interviewed the scientists. These are PhD level guys who had seen this stuff a lot of times they have cameras that fail. I mean, it's, you know, you've heard that story before in this very convenient that it happens just one of some giant disc shows up, but it does happen that their car batteries would die in the same spot. Whatever it was, messed with them. And maybe it's humans, maybe it is human technology, but no humans were ever found to be doing this stuff. Nids was there for all those years. They didn't want to tell anybody about it. They shared the information with me, but you can't publish it. Well, there's no real physical proof. So they just left it there. And I had tried to do it documentary, ended up, I talked to him and it'll let me write a book about it. But if people If you're looking for physical evidence and solid proof and they don't happen.

The skinwalker story, lack of physical evidence though there may be a come see attention of the defense intelligence agency. This guy, the scientist, who sees it, he goes to Bigelow. They go visit the property. He looks around. He has an experience. He's not there 15 or 20 minutes and something appears inside a house. Then only he can see. He doesn't say anything about it. He goes back to Washington, meets with Harry Reid in the capital and two other U.S. senators. He presents them as the proposal for a study of UFOs and related phenomena, not just like a tip, looking at flying saucers that encounter a US military, but something more expensive. They put out a contract, big hello, bids on it, creates an organization called Bass. Again, it puts together a team of experts. 50 or 60 employees, and they start studying it. They go around the world, they interact with other governments, they get their files, they send out teams to hotspots to try to figure it out, looking at whether there are connections between what we call flying saucers, possible aliens, and all these other different phenomena. The program goes on for a couple of years and somebody yanks the yanks the funding and get this the reason that the DIA suddenly became worried about all this weirdness that was being reported at the skinwalker and elsewhere because they thought it was demonic and they thought if this comes out that we're studying this weird phenomena a it's going to end up in the front page of the New York Times which it did and b we might be invoking Satan in here these were fundamentalist Christians in the Pentagon who pulled the money because they thought it was the devil on the making that up it's a

It is continuing. So all stops money was taken away. but the eight-tip program, which was what Lu Elazando had it up that looked just at military UFO encounters continued. Pentagon says it was ended. It did not. It continued for a couple of years and after the New York Times story comes out and creates this furer, it got funding. And it now has a structured organization and it is looking into cases where the U.S. military sees these things and off the coast of Virginia. They've been seeing this stuff. I think Fraver talked about it when it was here. beach balls with cubes inside of them. And they were sitting there for hours off the coast right where our war planes would go out for training exercises as if they wanted to be seen. And it went on. There were 70 or 80 witnesses during 2015, 2016 pilots. Some of them were willing to talk about it. Some weren't. It continues to this day. Now the program is on more solid footing. Now Congress has been informed and they want to expand it and get more information. We are told the New York Times is working on another follow-up story to look into reports of what Lizar said, crash retrievals, reverse engineering. The existence of these meta materials bits and pieces that grand pods stashed in a barn somewhere, whether it's Roswell or other alleged crashes, they're taking it seriously to figure out if there's something about these materials that we could not have created. So the Bass program, the Aussap program, created a baseline of what we know about the state of our technology right now in different disciplines, lift and propulsion things of that sort. They commissioned 38 papers that would be the baseline for what the state of human knowledge was in 2009. And those papers were published on an internal department of defense website, but they never have been made public. Six of them have now leaked out. I brought along two more for you that have not been made public.

So you can, you're going to be the first person outside of the program other than me to see it. So what is it called a dirt? This is a defense intelligence reference document. This paper is on meta materials. So how you could engineer existing earth materials where you could duplicate what you're seeing up there. None of these papers, two of them actually mentioned aliens or UFOs. They're strictly on what the state of our knowledge is or was as of 2009.

Only two of the papers do.

Well, there's one of the papers that looks at the physical effects of people that come into contact with these unknown craft. And it's sort of like the effects of radiation or micro waves. There are physical effects, hundreds of cases that have been investigated. And that's what that paper looks at. And that's already out there.

There was one that looked at how you would track a hypersonic vehicle traveling through space. How difficult would it be? Now, it doesn't say UFOs, but it's looking at things that really travel fast that are coming in from space and or atmosphere. How would you track that? Now, when that paper was written in 2009, we didn't have hypersonic weapons. Now, the Russians claimed they've got them. And now, it's very timely, because we're in a rush to develop those things. So that was one of the papers that I made public last year, and I interviewed the engineering professor who wrote it. He wasn't writing about UFOs. He was writing about the state of knowledge about hypersonic weapon systems back then. It's a similar thing for meta materials. That's what this this paper is is how would you engineer materials so you could travel through space that would have say you shoot it with the micro waves and it could develop certain special properties.

Yes, how put off who was a physicist who worked with Bigelow on both Nids and Bass made a presentation in Las Vegas in June of 2018 or he says, yeah, we've got these materials and we're trying to figure out where they came from and how they went engineered because some of them appear to be multi-layered that are beyond what is known, engineering capabilities of humans. It looks like they would have had to been made in, say, zero gravity of space, and we don't have any manufacturing plants up there. He implied that they came from crashes. Doesn't mean it's a UFO from Zader, particular. It's crashed from somewhere, and we don't know who's it is. So they're trying to figure out whether we can duplicate it or not. And they got a bunch of samples. Have you seen any of this? No, I haven't seen big alone.

Yeah, I think that's a heavy lift. So supposedly the New York Times are working on that story. I think it'd be pretty hard for them to be. Yeah, they are. They've been asking people about this stuff, but I mean, to get that into print, to get a pastor editors, that's a hard deal.

Yeah, I'm not sure that this is alien of any kind, but it is of unknown origin.

Yeah, he's got a presentation.

Yeah, here's the thing. This program is ongoing. It doesn't have to find aliens. They're legitimate national security reasons to be looking at who these who's flying these craft. Right. Things are still being seen over our military installations and our Pentagon wants to know who's flying them. And that's a perfectly legitimate inquiry, regardless of a little green men. No one wants to say they're at the Pentagon that we're investigating UFOs and aliens. They're just investigating where do these things come from? Are they a threat? Can we duplicate that technology? If the Russians or the Chinese get this stuff before we do, if they can do what the TikTok did, it's a game changer. So they want to know who's it is and how we can duplicate it. And that is a perfectly legitimate inquiry whether their aliens are not.

I don't know. I mean, I don't know that we have physical evidence other than if Bobless our story is true. We've got craft out there that we didn't make. I mean, the idea that we have stuff that we're a version engineering to figure out how it was made, that would be the clincher.

I'll give you one of his cases from Project Blue Book. It's April 18th, 1962. The original explanation is a it's a meteor. It comes into a atmosphere over Cuba. It goes all the way up the east coast of the US when it gets to New York. It turns left. It takes a left turn goes all the way across the United States at a couple of places. It slows down. It's picked up on radar. Jets are chased after it. They can't catch it. It keeps on going. It gets to Utah. There's a little town called Yureka and it lands. lands in Utah knocks out the power to the whole town, then it takes off again. That's a heck of a meteor. It gets over near Mesquite Nevada and explodes. And this thing the explosion was seen for hundreds of miles. They saw it in Las Vegas and Reno. I had interviewed a team that went out there to look for pieces. They thought it might have been an airplane that exploded. Supposedly never found it. A meteor that travels, takes a left turn, slows down lands, takes off again. That's like no meteor I ever heard of, but jail on Heinrich's team from blue book in their files. That's how they explained it away.

As I said, this is an amazing time. We're getting closer to knowing what the government knows, but that doesn't mean we'd have an answer. Right. I don't think they know either.

I never really bought into the stories that there'd been a formal meetings or anything. I think the government is as clueless as the rest of us. They have more information because they have the sensors to collect it. They have a giant apparatus, sensors that detect things coming in and out of space and radar, somewhere there's a giant pile of information that we have been able to see. But it doesn't mean that it answers the question. This thing has been with human, human throughout history. And it's always just tantalizingly out of reach. You know, used to be golden shields, and that it'd be swords and flaming chariots, and now it's flying saucers. And it looks like technology that maybe we could someday achieve. But it's always out of reach. And I think it will remain out of reach.

Well, you know, people say I want disclosure. I want to know we're ready. We can handle it. Are you sure? You can't handle the truth. I mean, are you sure you can handle it because we don't know exactly what it is. They can be disclosed. But what if it turns out that we're an agricultural product, you know, that we're being harvested for something or we're being allowed to breed and kind of a science experiment. Let's see where this goes. And then when it's time to end the experiment. I mean, I'm not sure people can handle it. Look at how they've handled COVID.

The technology that shows up that maybe reverse engineered or cry after bits and pieces. You know, I sometimes equate it with let's throw us were aliens. Let's throw us a cell phone into a chimpanzee cage here. Have at it. See how you do it for a while. I don't know that we're ever going to figure this stuff out.

Yeah, the door was slammed in their face when they tried to ask, send it a read. It was sent a majority leader had asked for permission to create it as an SAP special access program. So they could get access to other goodies and they said no.

I think that's entirely possible. It's also possible that they used him to discredit the idea of crash retrievals forever. You know, let's bring this guy in, show him some stuff, let him spout it out. Then we'll, we'll cut his legs off.

I'm not counting on any answers anytime soon. We may know more about what the government knows, but that's not the ultimate answer. I mean, what if it turns out These are not aliens. They live here. There are some other intelligence that we can't see. They can reach in like rats in a cage and pull us out once in a while or do experiments to us and it's their planet. And we're living in this tiny slice of reality and don't realize what's going on around.

It's a solid one too. I mean, I met Travis a few times and his story like Lazarus does not change. There are additional witnesses. What he went through is comparable to Bob. I mean, he was called a liar. And basically, I think his friends were accused of murdering him. And that's a solid case.

Well, again, how are you going to hear about it? What's the, what's proof? Right. What is a level of proof? Right. For those cases, this phenomenon is elusive. Right. It wants to show us glimpses of itself and glimpses of other realities, but it doesn't want us to be able to prove it. It's as if it's trying to tell us it's like a learning curve, you know, that reality isn't what it used to be, that it's way more complicated than you might think it is. That's sort of like what we got out of the ranch is that it's putting all these different weird phenomena together. When you can't really prove any of them, it's trying to tell you something. So what can you learn from it? What's your take on Whitley Striber? It's a mix. I think he's a brilliant guy, and I think he did have some experiences. I don't know that the experiences continued, you know, you get mixed signals from him. The fact that he has a great novelist, a horror novelist, complicates it. He thinks about this stuff on a different level. You know, it used to be, we all thought it saw that alien on the cover of his book, Communion, and figured it was a space alien from some other planet, and he's on a whole different level about what they might be now.

In essence, God's. I mean, Jack Wellay had said, if you can manipulate space time, if you can create your own gravity like the crafted Bob that's talking about, you could be from other planets, other solar systems, other times you could be time travelers, you could be from other dimensions or all of the above. Dr. John Mack had suggested that abductions and these strange experiences in connection with them suggest that we're part of a galactic neighborhood, a cosmic neighborhood, multi-dimensional reality that we haven't got our heads around yet. And that it's important for our ultimate survival that we figure it out.

Where do you keep that? George called mysterywire.com. It's a, I work for KLA, I'm still part of the I team, but since the beginning of the year, I'm focusing most of our attention on that, producing new content, but all this stuff that I've stashed at home and elsewhere is going up on there. Dr. John Mackel be on there eventually, because I got the interview him to while he's still alive.

very much so. You know, I had the support of my news director and the station at the time and you know, they were encouraged by the reaction from our audience. It was it was big and then it expanded and went all over the world. But I think they worried that I was going too far down the rabbit hole. So I had to be careful. I mean, for me, it is not my religion. I'm not chasing this because I've got a hole in my heart where God should be. It's a story. It's always been a story. And so I try to be careful and not commit to a position. It's space aliens. It's interdimensional. I'm following what evidence there is. I'm listening to the witness testimony and trying to figure it out. And over the years, I have been all over the world to chase this down. In the end, a lot of the answers of the best information was right in Las Vegas because of Bigelow and the organizations that he founded, all that expertise came right into my backyard and then Harry Reed be in the sponsor to the program that became a tip. I mean, I've unfortunate to be a fly on the wall and to gain their trust. And it's tricky, you know, it's tricky because so many people find this to be crazy and ridiculous. Whenever I do a story, not related to UFOs, it's about some crooked politician or cops or something like that, and people are mad at me, which happens often. They bring up UFOs. That's the UFO guy. How seriously can it be? Yeah. But I've had the support of my employer, and I'm thankful for that. And I get to be a little more creative on coast to coast because it's a four-hour show, and you can let people go. I don't have to be judgmental about it. When I'm reporting as a regular news story, I have to be more careful about what I include in it. But yeah, we're putting all that stuff up and it's been a fun ride. And there's a lot of times I just want to walk away from it like you. I get disgusted by it.

very much so I think, you know, I go back to the New York Times story that changed so much. So I had no known that stuff. And when I found out they were going to do it, I had known about the program that was underway. I said, hey, why don't I get to do this? Because I've known about all this time. I kept quiet about it because that was my agreement. I'm going to do this story. They said, no, this is Bigelow, Senator Reed, Tom Delong, had asked me, don't do that. If you do it, the New York Times said they'll back out. And so I sort of, I don't want to say, took one for the team, but I realized I'm not the New York Times. They were gently letting me know, I'm the UFO reporter. If I do it, nobody's going to pay attention to it. If the New York Times does it, then everybody does pay attention to it. And they did. They did that story. Then the Washington Post and Politico, all the new networks did stories. Press all over the world. It is now acceptable for reporters. They get into it. You have to be careful. There are still liars and scammers out there who will mislead you, but there is information that can be pursued by reporters. And I think that's made all the difference. It made Congress more comfortable with exploring it. And our world is different from, um, that was two and a half years ago.

up the free flow of information. Yeah, everything is there. Why is this? Why is anything?

Well, the same question now. Dave Fraver doesn't know the difference between a tic-tac and this weird craft and a seagull or something, you know?

It was doing some sort of active jamming and active war. This is the other paper I wanted to tell you about it. It does mention aliens. So it's a It is a recalculation of the trouble for having to know. They're not classified. It says unfassable. I just hasn't been released. It just recalculates how likely it is. There are alien civilizations in our solar system or how likely.

It's sort of the equation. It's the Drake equation. So then done this in a year ago about They try to figure out how many planets are out there, how many are in it, inhabited. This is a reworking of the calculations. Again, I can't read it. I can't read it.

Yeah.

Yeah, what the baseline of our information is about all those different topics I told you about, and then this one is how likely is it that we have galactic neighbors and how close might they be?

It comes to an answer. It's like 30 pages into that, but you're the first person outside the program to see it. You better address those. Sure, this is okay.

I hope they get up for you. And again, I'm one of the reasons I become a journalist is so I don't have to do math.

A lot of it is, you know, it's like bait to really get credit is credit. Yeah.

It's crazy people and some of it might be more organized than that. The richer your show, Joe, when Bob was on there, I know what happened to Jeremy as a result of it. I get a little bit of the blowback because people are just in the topic, but it's amazing how much of an impact it's had to kindle people's interest, not only in that story, but in others, in the general topic. By the way, this paper It says with a 75% probability, the nearest extraterrestrial civilization is located in between 1361 and 3979 light years from us. So there, there you go. Wow.

No. And that's one time.

I had a 20-year dialogue with Stanfordman and I respect the hell out of him because he really plotted away and really plowed the ground on the topic in general and tried to make it respectable, but he had a blind spot about Bob. We had multiple face-to-face conversations and exchanged letters over the years.

Yeah, I have said that to him, and he can't get beyond the college degree stuff. That's the stopping point for him.

I did not tell him that story, but it would not have mattered because Stan didn't hear any of that stuff. All the things about how does he go out and know it's going to fly on Wednesday night and take friends out there three weeks in a row and then record it on video. It doesn't want to hear that. Just didn't hear it. Why not? He'd already made up his mind. That's not good.

Yeah. There were PhD scientists on that ranch for 20 years. Some part of the time working for the US government trying to figure it out. They would have experiences. They can't document them. They realize that nobody's going to believe it. It was very frustrating. They tried to look for a bigger picture of what it was trying to teach them. Why is these performances? And that's how they could consider them like performances. They're not just UFOs popping in here just because it's a portal or something. They were showing glimpses themselves for a reason because if they didn't want us to see them, we wouldn't see them. It's like the TikTok. There's the TikTok sitting around. It's been there for a couple of weeks, zipping in and out. We can't quite get a radar bearing on it. And it's sitting there waiting for a freever to come along. And then it kind of reacts, oh, is there somebody else here? And it zips away. You know, it knew that we were there, given its capabilities, it wanted to be seen. But why?

So there might be some scary explanations, ultimately, that they live here, that they can see us and read our thoughts, and we're in the shower, and we're sleeping, and they're watching, and they manipulate us. on a micro and macro scale that it's their planet not ours that we're an agricultural product that's scary the other thing that's scary is what if we are totally alone you know that they're we're the only life in the in anywhere that this the only inhabited planet some people believe that I don't but that's pretty scary too because you look at how we take care of ourselves and it's not very well you know

Yes. You think that I think so. That's been said throw in the cell phone into the monkey cage here help yourself knock yourself out and we see these displays you know if they didn't want us to see and we wouldn't they have stealth capability we can see them right there and not see them on radar we can see them on radar but they're invisible you know they

I don't know. Don't know. Wait up there.

That there are craft. Our government's working on it. The Russians are working on it and the Chinese are working on it. That we know of for sure. That's been told to me directly. Senator Reed had said that was one of the reasons he started the program. Because he's had indications that those other governments are trying to figure out the same stuff that we're figuring out. And if some of us can master that technology, the Russians get it, the Chinese get it before we do. It's we're in trouble.

Just think about a civilization that's so much as 100 years older than us. Right, especially now. I think how far we've come in 50 years. I mean, the stuff that 50 years ago, a cell phone might be considered witchcraft, you know, and the rate of change is exponential. Something 100 years or a thousand years older than us could have technology that's basically magic.

like it causes a lot of people to wonder if they are time travelers. Yeah, that's us in the future coming back to see when we screwed up planet Earth or something like that.

Yeah, it's a couple of months ago, NASA made an announcement that they thought they had found evidence of or indications of a parallel universe. And I don't know if you saw that article or not, but they thought that I don't have their theorizing that time operated in the opposite direction in that parallel universe. Now get your head around that one.

Well, your show has a big reach, so maybe this time somebody will hear straight on forward.

Yeah. And to verify any of them? No, they could not be verified. And in fact, I think they were lying to me.

I got more than two dozen people who have come to me with bits and pieces of the story, who had worked out at Area 51 that I confirmed were out there. Security people who had seen a disc under a tarp in a hanger different people had worked there at different times 50, 60, 70s and 80s who had little pieces of the story not to confirm Bob. And then there was one that I pursued. I don't know if you want to keep going on this, but I pursued this guy. I was trying to find in the early 90s people who were in a position to know about what goes on out there. And I found one. And he had been active in the nuclear weapons program. He had worked for EG and G. he had the contract to manage area 51 from the beginning all the way through the first 30 or 40 years of it. And so I started basically stalking the guy. One of his sons was a state senator and he had told me he confided to me that you got asked my dad about UFOs and aliens. And another son had been FBI agent. So I stalked the guy, introduced myself. There were a couple of public events where I would just show up. And he finally got confident enough in me to invite me to his home. And he starts out these scrapbooks and he's showing me these stories and clippings and photos from the nuclear weapons program. And I'm watching and taking notes and stuff. And suddenly he closes the book and he goes, You're not here to talk about this nuclear weapons area. I said, no, not really. And his wife walks in and she says, oh, you're not going to tell him that stuff, are you? And then he started telling me. And then over the course of two years, I would meet with him, have a cup of coffee somewhere. I couldn't take notes. I couldn't record anything. But he told me the story. Now, this guy actually is someone that you've had reference to on your show. Remember, Annie Jacobson or Book of Better, he fifth? Yeah. Well, it's the same guy, but the story that he told me was different than what he told her. He said that they eventually told me that they had a live alien out there. that I could not go public with this until after he died, that they had craft, that it was in a special spot. Originally it was at Indian Springs, which is now a creature for space, and then it was moved Area 51 when 51 became active, and that it was a very small group that tried to analyze this stuff. They didn't know where it was from. They didn't know how we obtained it. He said this thing was alive. And that they eventually were able to communicate with us and told me that he was going to make a video tape and he was going to make it available so that after he died, I could have it. Well, suddenly two or three years later, he totally changes his story. What it happened was there was a congressional investigator. his name was Richard Demato and he worked for Senator Robert Bird and he oversaw black budget projects and he got on to this UFO story from Whitley Streber and so he was assigned find out what the deal is. So he went around the country, talked to different researchers and came to me and wanted to know about Area 51 and Lazar. So I told him a story and I told him about this guy and he got permission for this guy to violate his security oaths and talk to him about it. And they had multiple conversations, and they went to the founders of EG and G, the company, and it became a dead end. But after that congressional inquiry, this guy had completely changed his tune. So he made up this story, which is the one that you heard from Andy Jacobson, that what crashed in Roswell was a Russian technology, Nazi technology, flown by the Russians, containing little concentration camp victims who'd been experimented on by Dr. Mangalon. completely ridiculous, you know, story. But I think he got scared. He was a real guy in a real position to know and had shared with his family some of this information. I think the story that he told me was legit. But if he made the tape, which I think he did, I didn't get it.

Oh, centuries.

I had an operation one time after the Lizard thing, somebody who was targeting me and he had other people helping him that convinced me that he had worked out there with live aliens. And I'm getting letters from his supposedly written by his neighbors. Hey, you got to check this guy out. Doctor, I'll just say X. He was taken away by arm security in the middle of the night. I think he has something to do with aliens. From out of the blue, then suddenly I am at a planetary event, and I'm going to speak about UFOs, some event at this community college, and the guy shows up in a men's room. Hey, my name is Dr. X, standing there at the urinal. You're not doing a story about me, are you? So, no, who are you? What? This was a concerted effort to get me to believe that he had worked out there. And it went on for a couple of years. And of course, it was a complete bullshit. When I finally did dig into his background, I was able to document where he had worked and what he'd been doing through most of his life. And it was just like a fantasy role playing thing, at least I hope it was.

I'm encouraged by what's happened in the last couple of years. I mean, not only does information come another government because it's a little more solid than what you typically get from UFO people, but also by the new wave of people are now interested because of your show because of what's happened since the New York Times story. There's a whole new generation of people who are suddenly waking up and paying attention to it and are reading all the books and trying to figure the stuff out for themselves and also going through the process of separating wheat from chaff. I'm glad to see that there's a new energy in it. And ultimately, I hope that those folks, if not me, will be able to get some answers on this someday.

could there have been survivors that a small group of them that survived and now are more advanced than us. It's a breakaway civilization. Also an interesting question. A lot of people have explored. I don't know.

You know, it's central human kind of questions. Where are we on the food chain? Why are we here? What's the reason for this? Maybe.

I know. People say we're ready. We want to know. We're ready. We can handle it. Look at all our handling COVID. You know, freak down. People are over this. We're not ready for anything.

Netflix.

I've wondered, you know, what would happen if even less than aliens or whoever they are if somebody were to say, all right, we're going to show you. We're going to open the hangar doors. You can go in and see the sport model that was our touched. Right. You can't ever report on it again.

Probably.

some of the most interesting UFO cases are where high strangeness is mixed in so it's not only seeing the crap but then a lot of really weird peripheral stuff like your own mushrooms or something. Goblins like in a shooting gallery the Hopkinsville case or you know other kinds of strange creatures in phenomena maybe comes with a territory.

Thanks for having me, Joe. My pleasure.