Transcript for #1759 - Oliver Stone

Well, I get the impression that you have the impression I'm a full timer. No, not a full timer.

No, it's not. Everybody's dead from that era. But it's all the more important that we understand our history, because it's fading. But the reason we're in this kind of disbalanced situation in the United States, where we have no less and less trust, is because of the past. And if we go to this particular incident in 63, it's a demarcation point, it's a turning point for the country. And that's what's fascinating to me, because I have a historical interest. I've written and made the untold history of the United States. And I'm very interested in history. And I just think we have to pay attention because the roots of our problem are here. And do I want to talk about that or do I want to talk about that? Sure, please. I have to generalize because from the time he was killed in 63, that November, we think about it. Not one American president, not one. And you can name them all, have ever challenged the military or the national security state or the intelligence agencies, not one. They haven't been successful. They've cut the budgets occasionally, but not by much. But essentially they keep going up the defense department as record year this year $700 and some $60 billion. Who says who says you can't to the military or to the intelligence agencies? They seem to have an inordinate amount of power Kennedy was the last one who was trying to curb it. And he met and serious effort towards peace. He was the last president to talk about peace. Very nobly. And people have said, oh, he just talks. But no, he was doing things. And we can talk about that too. Yeah. That's why it's important. It's crucially important. This country has gone in the wrong way since the National Security State has gotten bigger, stronger, more money, more paranoid, less trust.

And it's very dangerous situation because it's a frozen bureaucracy. And they die off, but they're replaced by insiders. And as a result, we are the biggest bully on the block around the world. No question. We have the most power and militarily supposedly into clear in every which way. We tell other countries we intervene. We often tell our allies what to do or we make them do it. We declare ourselves to have enemies and we keep insisting on it. We talk about China, we talk about Russia, Iran, Korea, North Korea, North Korea, North Korea, Cuba, North Korea, Cuba, and don't forget Venezuela. Considered a major threat. Although these threats are inflated, overinflated, and we can talk about each one of these individually. That's what I've done, you know, my spare time in documentary. I've done Ukraine, I've done Russia with Putin and I'm very interested in what we call enemies. And I keep seeing this over-inflation of it because why? Think about oil well. I remember the old, the Georgia oil well in 1994. You know, the state exists to fight a perpetual war or prepare for war. That's what we've been doing since 1945, six. After World War II, we didn't stop. World War II, we stopped moving into World War III. We said that our allies in World War II, the Russians, were a great threat to our country, although they were depleted. Their energy was depleted. Their money. They were broke, broke. We had promised the money. We cut off the payment. The moment Roosevelt died, Truman cut off the aid payment that we were sending to them some ten billion dollars. And since that time, we just keep, we pushed the Cold War. And we have to, we can discuss the Cold War if you want. But it was really think about life before 1945. Think about we were in a war with Hitler. It was a war that was forced upon us, we even went in the very late. And then think about the 1930s and the 20s. The Roosevelt, the Franklin Delano Roosevelt, was recognized as Soviet Union. He was one of the first. He was the first. He was at a vision for post-World War II, which is beautiful. You have to understand that it was a vision of a world dominated by the great powers. It would be United States, Britain, China, and USSR at that time. That was the four powers he envisaged that would control. And he believed in the United Nations. He was, it's a shame he didn't see his vision come true. He died in April of a 45. Truman took over and it was a different. The moment Truman took over with his group. The Soviets were seen as the enemy right away. Right away, there was no going back on it.

These are very typical of what happens when the state becomes scared of its position. It's dissonance become enemies of state. And the same thing has happened to some degree in China, yes. And they are paranoid about it and you could say, but to draw an equation between our power and their power is wrong. Because, you know, a bully, well, he goes around and scares the neighborhood, right? It works for a certain period of time, but he's a hated individual. There's fear because he's there, right? Yeah. I've seen your, I've seen your, you know, you talk about martial arts. You think about as a movie, the guy's always kicking ass in the neighborhood. and then till the new hero comes along and deals with it. He generally wins and hero wins but the new hero wins by not enforcing that kind of fear on the rest of the people. You've got to have modification of behavior. That's what's nothing wrong with our power. I think the United States has power to defend itself. No question. But we have to modify our behavior to behave in a humane way with people. And recognize people's differences. But that seems to be less the cases. We become more disciplined, more ironed about how we have to, how they people have to behave. We tell them, in your country, you can't do this, you can't do that. Now, some countries are different. They have different customs, different cultures. They don't have to agree with the way we run. We call it democracy. All our people question the democracy inside this country. I mean, you know what the elections are like here. It's become very suspect elections itself. And the money behind the elections, I mean, it takes a fortune to get elected. You're going to Washington. I mean, I think it's hard to get an audience with a congressman. I do think you have to pay money in order to get the year of a congressman. So it's, you know, our democracy is not functioning in the way it was meant to function. And other countries, and we want other countries to restore their democracies, but their democracies, it works better in Europe to a certain degree because they don't have long election periods. They have short election periods controlled. And the money is It's very hard as well control. They know allow private to private sector to take over the elections as we did here in this country with the United Supreme Court's decision allowing corporations to exist as individuals.

You're in a half. It's on Showtime now. It's limited. They have a 90 day hold on it and end of February it becomes available widely and we will get it out while in the United States, but it's available in foreign countries. It's in about 15 foreign countries, but still the United States is. Listen, we're lucky to have gotten a Showtime to do this because They're a good company that's given me a platform in the past with my Putin documentary as well as my untilled history of the art States.

Yes, people get this confused because I say you went into Vietnam, but no You have to look at the whole thing the way it was. He avoided war. Twice in Cuban, this is very important to remember the Bay of Pigs, was a set-up. The CIA controlled that operation that went in. They expected they knew that operation would not work unless the United States came in, but laterally to back up that invasion of Cuban exiles. They expected it because Eisenhower would have done it in the past. They got used to it in the 1950s that the United States would back to CIA. Kennedy made it very clear that he would not put U.S. combat troops into into Cuba. May that clear. Or give it air support unless they were established to be ched. He was willing to meet them halfway. He was saying, OK, we'll go if you succeed, but it didn't succeed. It was fucked from the beginning because Castro knew it was coming. He knew about this seven days, eight days before, maybe more. And they were stranded on the beach. As a result, that was a few days after he became president in Abraham. He had very little experience, but he was shocked at what happened. And he took full responsibility for the debacle. He said, I'm the responsible officer of government, which is a very good thing to do. He established a hierarchy, but he really wasn't in charge, and he knew it. He told De Gaulle, and he also told other people, I'm not sure I'm in charge of this government. because they have the secret branch, the CIA, that does what it does. The military definitely is not controllable. All the chiefs of staff were wildly against him, including Curtis Lemais, Air Force Chief. They saw him as an inexperienced young man, although he had been in war, and he had actually been in heroic situation there. He really earned his, he earned, he was in the Navy, PT boat, and he saved a lot of men during that horrible experience he'd had in the South Pacific. But aside from that, he wasn't scared of the generals because he'd been in war. I guess that was what I'm trying to say. And the second thing he did was a year later, and this is crucial, people don't quite get it. The missile crisis happened in October of 62. This was a key moment for Kennedy. This is what signed his death warrant, I believe. He didn't go in. He didn't invade. Everybody in the Pentagon, including Eisenhower, including this senior civilians experienced and said, go into Cuba. Take them out because the Russians had put nuclear missiles into Cuba. Okay? And this was against all Americans. You couldn't do this 90 miles from American shores. It was against all violated the concept of America as a sovereign country. It was no question that he had to go at any end. This is very important to understand. If you had done it, we've now found out that the Soviets, yeah, they had not only, they had a lot of troops there that are 100,000 troops roughly. It would have been, it would have led to one, one, it would have built up into a nuclear explosion out of Cuba, somewhere else, somewhere else. In the ocean, the blockade ships would have blown up one thing after another. Cruise chef, the Russians would have reacted. That way would have reacted. And then step by step, we would have been into possibly an arm again, with Russia. Although we had way, way far more nuclear weapons than Russia did. That's what the reason the Pentagon wanted the war then. They wanted to wipe out the Soviet Union. This is very much in the back of their minds.

Yes, I was beyond that too. I mean, way beyond that. I'm saying this is important to realize they're thinking. They're thinking, now we have a tremendous advantage. In a few years, we won't. The Soviets are going to build up and they did in the 1970s. Practically, the parody, that's what Reagan was talking about. He said, we have to take on the Soviet Union the same thing. But in the 1962 period, it was possible in their minds to win. For a strike, blow them up, we take a limited amount of casualties with 20, 30 million people. Do you remember Dr. Strangelep? Yes, I was just saying kind of thinking. And Cooper got it right. That was their thinking. We can win now, wipe them out, get rid of this threat.

Yeah, although there was China, of course, in the background, but they were willing to take out China, too. They had plans for that on that when it got to its worst point in that crisis in those 13 days, they had plans for China off of Okinawa. Wow. It was going to be a real conflict ratio. And they would have won that war, so to speak. I mean, hopefully a male and a female would survive it. But hopefully that's a fail and a female. And that's what Kennedy was up against. Him and his brother, Robert, is tremendous story. And it's been told to some degree, but I don't think people understand the passion of what was happening in that moment. And I think he saved him and Kruschek, because Kruschek was very much on his side in that regard. Kruschek was also had seen a lot of war, of course, installing at Stalingrad. So those two and Robert and various people around them saved the same situation. Pulled it out. It's the last second, basically. It was very close to going over. And that was the end. The military never trusted them again. They said, this is God. He's weak, sister. And they said, this is gonna, and he's gonna, he's emasculated us. This was the whole idea. And what led in the following months of this all is planning around him was to basically end his reign, because he was definitely on the road of changing the American way of peace. He wanted peace more than war. And he talked about it. And of course there's a huge complex out there. I was in our talked about that would have been out of business. I mean, he really wanted to cut back on the concept of going to war. I have to understand that. He pulled out of, so if he doesn't go to war twice in Cuba, think about this. Why would he go to war in Vietnam? And he said this six thousand miles away, why if you're not going to defend the United States against Cuba, would you go to war in Vietnam to defend one? To defend the United States from Vietnam? This was a thinking. They couldn't, they didn't understand that. I have to say also he didn't go to war in Laos, which Eisenhower advised them to before that. So he avoided war.

Yeah, it's a great speech. I love it, but once I'm coughing. No, no, just one.

Well, he didn't want war. But he thought it was the right thing to do. He thought it was the right thing to do because we could pressure the Soviets down. That's what he felt. That's what John Foster Dulles and Alan Dulles and CIA chief also felt that. Very strongly that we have to push the Soviets hard to make them back down. And that was not the right reading of the Soviets. The Soviets were paranoid beyond belief about us. They're hardliners are the ones who threw out Chris Jeff a year later. You have thrown out of office too. So hardliners in the United States, hardliners in Russia, are the people who got rid of Chris Jeff and Kennedy. That was at payback for being peace warriors. So did this great speech, by the way, was Kennedy's speech? Yes. In 1963, in June, the peace speech. That's the most important speech you ever gave. Which one is that? Peace. I'm talking about a concept of peace where everyone, our children, our mortality. The very air we breathe, we have in common with the Soviet Union, which took so many casualties in World War II. You should reread that speech. Yeah, well, I put it into the documentary and a piece of it.

Yes, and after World War II, the United States had employed all these men, millions of men, and they came back to this country. There was a tremendous fear of another depression starting again. In Vandenberg, the Senate Majority Leader told Truman, he said, you've got to scare the American people into reacting. That's the only way you're going to get money to keep, to keep this military going. It's going to demobilize what you did. to some degree, but we have to keep spending, we have to keep building weapons of war to prepare for, I suppose, they all thought the Russians were coming.

I think it was regarded with, like, this is a nice old man. He's honored to weigh out. Yeah. And you know, he's wishing, I think personally I think Eisenhower had guilt for it. He had the biggest buildup of nuclear missiles nuclear weapons in that time period. I think we went up to 25,000 nuclear weapons from 2003,000. It was a tremendous build of and it continued into Kennedy's time because of the budget the way it worked. Kennedy was shocked when he came in the office. He was relatively, he was had to be a realist to get elected. He wanted, he talked, he talked a harder line than Nixon. Yes, that's what people get disconfused. In 1960 election he was calling for. He's saying there was a missile gap between us and the Russians, which was pure bullshit. He based that on, in a faulty information. The truth was the moment he got into office. He sent a secretary of defense, McNamara, over to the, to the Pentagon to check this out. With a few weeks later, McNamara came back with the information, and no, we're way ahead of the Soviets in our missile capacity. There was never true. So, in other words, Kennedy ran on a platform of being a Cold War. He had to be. He couldn't be elected in 1960 against Richard Nixon. Just because of the climate of the country. And that's the way it was. And that's why the 1962 happened, I believe. I think the people were different than the people in Washington. I think the people had different feelings. They were scared. There was a lot of nuclear fallout stuff. It was talk of nuclear war, strange love. On the beach, don't forget it was a very important movie. It went around the world. People were scared of nuclear war. So there was a desire for peace and I think the people expressed it in their love for Kennedy because he was starting to change. The polls all showed that. However, he did have a very tough election coming up in 64 with Barry Goldwater on the conservative side growing in power. Goldwater was a significant speaker, a threat, and very much a hard liner. Kennedy was very precarious position when for example he didn't want any to go any further with yet not he put advisors in he put advisors into Vietnam when he came in yes because as an hour it started the policy of helping Vietnam we cannot lose Vietnam the domino theory will lose Asia all that stuff Kennedy didn't quite see it that way because he'd been to Vietnam in 1950s as a young senator with his brother actually. And he had talked to some seasoned diplomats out there who were more of his thinking than the Pentagon thinking. And they had told them that the French are screwed in Vietnam and they're never going to get out of this mess. And they didn't. It was a war like the war we had years later where they were undone by the guerilla. And the desire for independence and the guerilla forces they were fighting.

I know, it's amazing. It's a crazy job for a Lynn. Right. And then don't forget the ongoing threat of Cuba. Cuba, Cuba, yeah. Dollars had launched the The CIA chief, Allen Dollars, not had launched the Cuban expedition against, they decided to do on Bay of Panks before he came into office. And on top of it, don't forget also. He comes into office. He didn't even know that we've been participated in the Petri Slamumba coup in the Congo. Now Kennedy was very interested in Africa, and people don't know all this story, but he really got involved heavily with diagonal. There was a UN president in Africa. When the Mumbai was killed because of our machinations over there, we wanted to get rid of them. We had a plan to get rid of them. Whether we were the ones who pulled the trigger, no, I'm not sure because the South Africans and the and other people were involved Belgians were involved but still he was killed no one told them for three weeks and he got to call from the CIA and they told them that he was shocked and his face we have a photograph of him in the film when he hears about the moment was death So all these problems come on his plate, so very difficult situation to work. That's why I'm saying he had to be very careful in running for reelection. He knew the problems as a very seasoned politician he'd been around for a few years. He didn't want to sound like a, uh, uh, what you call a piece nickname that definitely that was out of the group. He had to keep saying things like we were going to help the Vietnamese, South Vietnamese, but in truth was that he had no desire to help them if they were losing. And he made that very clear, and that's in the film too, because we found a declassified file from the sect-deft meeting of April or May of 63, right before his death. And in that meeting, McNamara, who represents him, says, we've got to speed up this withdrawal of troops. Speed up this withdrawal of troops. And at that point, McNamara knew they were losing in the South Vietnamese. He knew it. So what I'm saying is that Kennedy and McNamara together were willing to pull out of Vietnam, win or lose. And that's, he couldn't say that publicly. Right. Because of the real action. The National Security Action men ran in 263 calls for the withdrawal of the first thousand troops, serious withdrawal. But there was an appendix where all troops out by 65, but he didn't put that in writing. And this we know about now, but we didn't know about it. Then I got a lot of flack when I made my movie in 91, the original. He says it's about withdrawing from Vietnam. Kennedy never intended to withdraw from Vietnam. That's bullshit. It's clear as Bell, because McNamara not only wrote it up after my movie came out, he wrote a book called, I forgot the name of it, and he said the same thing. He said Kennedy, it was pulling out, so did my George Bundy. That's national security advisor. He's asking me, I got a P, you made me drink water. Are you got a P already? I got a second.

Oh, yeah. In fact, he had that Irish sense of tragedy. He went to Ireland before he died and he kind of knew it.

Oh, he knew about that because there was several attempts already.

Oh, yeah. I didn't know about it in the document. That's right. We go into Chicago. That's right.

Yeah. In Chicago, you know, early November of 63, a land lady complained about four Cubans with arms in the apartment, then she, that they rented briefly. And two of them were busted, two of them disappeared. And two of them were busted where interrogated and let go, which is strange. Yeah, there was also a patty that was similar to Oswald's same profile as Oswald. He'd been a Marine. He'd been in Japan at an air base. He had expressed his dissatisfaction. Another air base, not the same one, not at Sugi. And he expresses dissatisfaction with the United States. He defected to Russia. Now this program, this defective program, the Russia, seems to have been institutionalized. by the CIA, and they sent a certain number of people there to get information about Russia. Now, why do you ask? I always wonder that question. Because back in the 50s, they didn't have land-based information, very good land-based information. They had to get it from sending people there because they could watch the USSR from U2s, which was what they did, and satellite photography. The guy that was a valley was his name. He was also stopped, but he disappears. Don't ask me what happened. He's a detail. The point is that Kennedy was aware. Kennedy, yes, he was, but he didn't really get the whole picture. So it brings in the story of this black secret service, who became his friend. It was named Abraham Bolden, who himself had appointed He looked around on his inauguration and his inauguration day in 61. 61. He said, how come there's no black agents here protecting me? It's very interesting. Boston Bolden became his choice. And of course, he ended up in trouble because he is the one who pointed out the details of how badly handled the secret service did. He used the information. And he was busted on false fake charges, went to jail. It's a whole story. That's another story. This murder has so many mysteries. I mean, Sherlock Holmes would love it. You need a microscope to get into this. And you have to go in all the details. because it goes in so many directions. There was a plot and tap where he was same set up, a motorcade, go past a tall building where you have to make a sharp turn. And in that building, they went crazy. They searched the whole building, but there'd been a tip off, couldn't find anything. And Kennedy went ahead with the tap at trip. He canceled the Chicago trip. He went ahead with the tap at trip. But the same kind of profile a guy was a Cuban who was going to take the fall. He was a member of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the student students against, uh, against Castro was a lot of anti, anti, um, anti, Castro protests in Cuba, New Orleans, everywhere at Texas, all the South, wherever the Cubans were.

They were a lot of it was anti-canity because he had been twice he had knocked on in on Cuba, so they felt like he'd betrayed them. It was a see the hatred for him.

Yeah, that's a note he laughed. I mean, he thought that was horrible right here.

Well, it's not so crazy when you think about it. It's the realistic. That's the way they operate when you put something in writing like that. It becomes more and more feasible.

Well, obviously, people who are talking about 2001 wouldn't point to Northwoods as a father, the grandfather of this operation. It required, among other things, plan to invade Cuba. That was a whole idea. We need another justification.

A series of papers that came out because of this assassination records review board resulted in my film. They found so much, I mean, but basically that operation called for an invasion of Cuba through provocation, like things like having Cubans killed in the air, domestic airliner blow up and going down over Guantanamo Bay, yelling, or under fire, or under fire, and people would die, and then they blamed on Cuba. Everything that would be blamed on Cuba, that would be blamed on Cuba, that kind of thing.

This is very important. This is crucial to understand. This is very crucial because I do believe that was a motivation for the assassination. The cuba thing was really the thing that set them off. Forget about Berlin. Forget about the date talked with the Russia. Forget about the nuclear peace treaty. Nuclear atmospheric treaty that Kennedy signed with Christian. That was a big treaty. Forget all these things. Forget Vietnam. twice-eat failed in Cuba. This created a tremendous wave of expectation from Cubans who hated them. So this is where the CIA and Cuban kind of intersect. They use the Cubans very well, because there's a handler in Florida called George Joe and Eighty's gets involved with them. Very interesting character. We'll come back to him if you want. The Cubans are used everywhere on the map in Texas. Florida, New Orleans, Oswald is soaked in them. He comes back in, I'd say, it's crazy story. He's soaked with, you know, soaked in them. I mean, it becomes a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which is, by the way, started by this year. It's not really a legitimate organization. He'd become a member of that. And the CIA started both sides. They started the student movement against Castro, and they started the fair play for Cuba. But both sides of the equation, that's typical of what they do. Can I go back one second because this is a complex situation and people have a field day with going after JFK here because JFK had nothing to do with the assassination planning on Castro. How do we know this? Inspector General the CIA did a report back in 6667 for Helms was asked. Richard Helms was the head of the CIA. There had been this whole scandal thing, Jack Anderson was a very famous columnist, he raised these issues and said that the CIA was involved with the Cuban groups to assassinate Castro using mob figures. And this whole thing started to stir up in the 60s. After Kennedy had been killed, we started to hear about it. Of course, the Warren Commission wouldn't allow anything like that to come out because Alan Dollos was on the commission. They never heard a word about any of this stuff. It started to come out. Johnson, who was present at that point, wanted to have full report. And he asked, he made Helms, Richard Helms, give it to him. Helms is a character that is slimy, he goes way back. Well, that's another story. You need to be sure. I call him here. L. V. J. writes has right me the fucking report guy writes the IG guy who's supposed to be honest Inspector General writes a report and it's the whole story the whole bananas everything and he says in the report there is no evidence of any president I mean Eisenhower or Kennedy knowing approving of any assassination attempt against Castro who should understand that so and that's Robert Kennedy included because there's no evidence that we have found all the research community that says that Robert Kennedy knew anything, although to CIA after the assassination made it a best effort to plant them as assassination people. In other words, this guy has seen more Hirsch wrote a book and the assistant, Halpern, who was the number one assistant to Helm's, Halpern, was the main source and put out all these stories about Camelot really being planning the murder of Castro. That's why you hear this over and over again, to nomchomsky of all people picked up on it and keeps repeating it. This is just not true. We can't find evidence of and the IG report points to it. Helms didn't want to give the report. One copy and gave to LBJ. That's it. LBJ read it. It disappears into the files. And the assassination records review board gets the IG report finally open. What is it? Twenty now, twenty one. You realize that that report and the historians keep... The historians actually was available in 1990s. I mean, I don't know if the historians have a responsibility to read these papers. They didn't. Some of these historians keep making the mistake of saying Kennedy was behind getting rid of Castro. Kennedy was in a tough position on Cuba. Yes, he had to move against Cuba. At the same time, he wanted to save his alliance for progress. Alliance for progress was a huge social experiment. He started it. in Latin America, very important, $10 billion. And they really didn't want to do military governments with South America to be putting the money into military stuff. So he put it into education, agriculture, everything he could, he made this tremendous effort. And it's a wonderful story, of course, Johnson closed it down and put back the money back into the military regimes. Brazil followed the coup and Brazil followed it. Where was I? I'm just trying to say, on Cuba Kennedy, had to give the notion that he was doing something the whole time in these years at 52, 63. So he started Operation Mongus. Now, Mongus is a very disputed. Mongus was run by Edward Lansale. his offer to an operative who was in and out of Philippines, his whole story with Lazio. But CIA never believed Operation Mongus would work. They thought it was PR. Meanwhile, the CIA is doing its own thing with gangsters. People like Johnny Roselli, people like William Harvey.

Mongus was another operation to subvert the Cuban regime, to blow up things to but not kill Castro, to blow up things to destabilize the regime, like Northwoods. All these plans are coming in from different departments to derail the Cuban Revolution. Why? Cuban Revolution is very influential all through Latin America. That's why Kennedy wanted his alliance for progress. So he wanted, and he made his thinking was that if I can get Castro back off, and he kind of don't fuck with my alliance for progress, we'll let you be. We're not going to come after you. You can have your regime, but we're going to prove to you that the alliance for progress can work.

He was shocked by the Bay of Pigs shocked. And his brother, he was at this, he said, they lied. They lied to me. And he thought he was in charge of the government.

Yeah, that's all you ever hear. Yeah. Yes. I know it's terms. Yes. He failed. The man got stranded on the beach and he failed to send in air cover. Yes, because he said so, he wouldn't do that. And if they had done it, it would have looked like America's being the bully all over again. Their bombing, the Cuba, which was what was expected of America. He didn't do it. He was announcing a new kind of America, crucial to understand. And I think the Bay of Pigs is a fine moment for Kennedy. And he had to take the fall for it. But he was furious behind the scenes at Dallas in his group. The more he found out about it.

So he's just he's waking up. Yeah. He's waking up to 61. And that was a rough year.

He knew I don't think he First of all, he fired Dullis. That was a huge bananza. I think that was a great move. He fired Dullis, Bistle, Richard Bistle, who was a schemeer a planner and cabel. He fired them. But he didn't clean house. Richard Helm steps in as the major dome over there. He appoints McCone, John McCone, who's an establishment guy to run the CIA. His first choice is two liberal, and they destroy that possibility. At least even so like the guy in this. So McCone goes in, Hellm is really runs a show. McCone is a figurehead. He sent overseas to visit the stations. Hellm is the guy. He runs the sea. Now, what's fascinating? Either way, he's the guy we need files on, you know, a lot of files. He's another one of these operatives who knows a lot, who's never really pushed. He was, he was questioned finally by the church committee.

Which ones? No, I think they're finally coming around, but they have to clean the files. I think they were surprised by the amount of work we got the amount of information we got out of the files. We, I mean, the whole community of researchers. Yes. These people are experts. They know the technical language. They go into these files like, like, like ants. Yeah.

Thank God. It's pretty cool. It's amazing. A lot of nut cases throughout there. But those serious people are really good. And they're the ones that kept this case alive.

I don't use that word. I think true seekers much more.

significant. I would say from the beginning, there was, yes, where you have a shot from the rear and a shot from the rear.

It's a giant maze. It's so confusing. Yes. And that no one would be believed if they were one part. Think of it as a department of this as a department of this. Somebody pops up and says, I know this. So he disappears in the maze. It's about the piece of information. Yeah. There's been no attempt by government to follow up on this at all. They dismissed. They had the HSEA in 1978, right? That came about because of pressure. And a lot of that was classified still and disappeared for a while. If we cut it out, all that stuff, they decided that there was a probable conspiracy based on the acoustic evidence of the motorcycles. But we don't want to go into that because that's a whole other story. A acoustic evidence found from the re-recorded in the front of us.

Well, the shots, the shots.

Well, don't confuse it. First of all, the magic, well, there's no chain of custody on it. It's the FBI lied and we proved it in the film. Yes, he did. Because the times don't match when it was given. So the FBI down and out lied. Now, Hoover, of course, never believed, you know, believe. One had to believe. wanted to believe that Oswald did it alone. He had to because they put themselves on a straight jacket. They said three shots. There were not three shots. It was probably four or five shots. Three shots, one assassin who why? What's his motive? He was a perfectly reasonable young man. He was in the corridor, being yelled at and he said, I need a lawyer. I'm a pastor. The guy didn't behave like he was proud of what he had done. No, he said he was a communist and assassin. They had this background of visiting Russia. Of course, we found out that the community found out that it wasn't everything that didn't meet the eye. It was all other story going on. What about the Oswald had been an associated with the CIA? Not that he'd been an agent, but he'd been watched by the CIA for four years. That we know without a doubt now because of what we declassified. Angleton, James Angleton, and Counterterrorist, she had a file on Oswald since before Russia. They knew him. They knew what he was doing up until the week. Well, apparently, they disappeared as flash warning about a week before the assassination, which means to say, you don't need to check Oswald. If you're a secret service, you see him somewhere on a parade route. You'd have to clear out those type of people. They get this secret service is very aware of people who have backgrounds, who could be dangerous. They took that off the signal on Oswald.

Dip him in the Cuban poison, sheep dip him, make him look like a comi who loves Castro. That was the intention, I believe. The CIA was so upset about these two near invasions of Cuba that this was a chance by killing Kennedy to get the United States to move against Castro. And this is what Johnson, this is where Johnson is not, you can't blame Johnson because he felt that there was his pressure right away. And he said to the Warren Commission, guys, he says, look, there's a lot of pressure to point the finger at Russia and Russia and Cuba. We don't want to do that because we're going to have a nuclear war if we do that. Like 40 million people are going to be dying. That's what we told Warren. Warren was, you know, in those days, it was very serious. 40 million people, my God, he had the all the weight of the country on his shoulders. And that's why he accepted this lousy job as the chief commissioner. So Johnson used that story, but Johnson believed, I think he believed it. I think he believed in some way. I'm not sure. Let me put something, this very important. Marvin Watson was his aide to Johnson. In 1970, in 1990, he testified He testified that Johnson, after he read the IG report that we talked about earlier, which said that there were no assassination. President Kennedy or Robert had never approved authorized any presidential assassination attempt on Castro. He read that report. And he told Watson, according to Watson, he said, I now believe that the CIA was probably involved in the assassination. That's when he said, wow. in 67 when he read the report. Wow. It comes out at the church committee, which is classified, disappears for some reason. We find it again because of this ARB RB.

I do believe so. I think he's definitely involved in the cover-up because he doesn't want that. He doesn't want to have a war. But he changes the whole policy of Kennedy right away. We have that declassified call between him and Robert McNamara. What does Johnson say in that call, do you remember? It's in the film. He says, I was never in agreement with you and the president about withdrawing from Vietnam. I thought you were wrong. He says that proudly because he's going in. Right. Why he wants to go into Vietnam and not Cuba, you know, is another issue. But think about that. Just think about the implications of that. Johnson is moving towards war in Vietnam. Why was it so important for them to get into Vietnam? I get a good question, you know, it was a poor boy. In a way we got linked in with a French, because we supported the French war financially. We offered them apparently, we offered them nuclear weapons when they were losing at GMBN Food. And there was a whole connection going back through our interest in Vietnam was the domino theory that if the Vietnam Phil Thailand would be next to Singapore, Indonesia, Japan, It's all these fears, the hyperinflation, overinflation of a threat, the threat inflation they call it. That was always the American way threat inflation. everywhere you look all over the world you crane threat inflation they build things up to this paranoid point like a bully who say there's another bully that's gonna take over is worse than me you know as I think about as what we how we think and it was it didn't work though domino theory didn't work Vietnam fell the did Thailand did nothing moved right in that area The important thing to remember, I think we, it's too much to tell you, I'm sorry. It's awesome. Don't worry about Kennedy had a terrific relationship for the first time with Sukarno of Indonesia. Sukarno was independent here all like Ho Chi Minh in Indonesia, which has gigantic resources, much bigger than Vietnam. That was the, that's the treasure chest in Southeast Asia. It was Indonesia. And actually, Rostau, I think he said, I don't understand why we went into it. When Indonesia was the big number, and we won in Indonesia in 65 when the CIA pulled their coup off, and they killed about a million communists. If you remember, we put Suharto in, who was our guy. We got rid of Suharto. He was moved aside, and he ran in Indonesia for the next 30, 40 years into, he made a fortune, all his cronies. And it was like, we'll boost him in the Congo. These are all our guys. We were very happy with Indonesian. That was our biggest coups. We couldn't talk about it because it was covert. Right. We gave lists to the Indonesian military lists of people of who were common. We said we're communists or known sympathizers. Just like in Vietnam when we went after Operation Phoenix when we killed all those people.

No. I don't think so. I think that's really conspiratorial. You think so? I do, but there may be there that I don't know about.

Right, but I believe that. I believe that. No, I believe that. I believe that Gary Webbeck, he's an Asian, although I'm not expert on it.

Oh, and we know from here in America, we know all these things happened from Laos, shipping stuff. Yeah. I imagine, but I don't know enough about it, but that we know about it and win hand back. That was a whole story. The bank that was used. Yeah, the CIA is up to its neck and dirt. Yeah. Always has been. It's crazy. And why we tolerate them? I mean, You know, I went up to speak at the National Congress election delegate during J. Brown was running for office. He asked me to talk. And I called that Madison Square Garden, I called for the abolition of the CIA. All Jesus. And it was in the papers and they said, I was nuts. We have to start over. We made a huge mistake in allowing that agency to exist because we gave them covert operational abilities. We know where we cut them off from being was allowed them to be secretive.

How do we know? How do you know? I mean, we'd like to know. What is positive about killing a million people in Indonesia? What is positive about They're successful successes in Guatemala or Iran. I'm trying to be honest. They put us in shit in Iran. If we had sorted out the Iran situation back in 1954, with the mosaic. We wouldn't be in this mess. We would have allies. There's no reason we can't be at peace with the whole world, Joe. There's no reason. Maybe I sound like a crazy optimist to you, but I've lived long enough to tell you that there's no need to make enemies. You can have friends if you work at it. That means modify your behavior, talk, understand your enemy, your so-called enemy's points of view. See, only way. See, I would form another agency called Intelligence Agency or whatever you want. but no covert ability. And you got to take away the money, the money is what drives, they have secret money everywhere in the world. But ultimately, they always needed, they needed military hardware to achieve this. And that's what they got from the Pentagon. That's where my friend, Fletcher Proudi, who gave me a lot of information on JFK, came in. He was a focus point officer, providing hardware to the CIA for all these coups. They tried to do it into that. They tried to do it in Ukraine back then in the forties. They tried to do it. There are several countries they tried and failed. I don't know if the CIA has ever had a real success that was positive for the world.

Yes, there are people who are dangerous, but they're in the hole. Mill of mankind, how many are there? How often? Don't you think the terrorists don't you think they have a crime with us? I mean, don't you think there's reasons after what happened in the Middle East? Over all these years, we've re-tried to control the situation. Isn't it a matter of control, America trying to tell other countries what to do? Isn't that the... If we let things go, just if we let things take a natural course, let's see where it goes. We wouldn't be friends, so we have a plenty of defense.

But of course you think the threat from ever reaching our shores. That's why I went to Vietnam because it would come here, right? Vietnam is going to come to America. That's the South. It's never true. Never true. Think it through. And communism itself, was it really ever a threat? Once it competes economically, as Kennedy said, it's going to have its problems. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. Socialism to some degree won't work either. I remain a capitalist, maybe I'm the bad guy, but I really think my father was in the stock market. I believe in an economic competition, but a healthy one.

His problem was he didn't clean house, you know? Right. He didn't clean house because everybody at the CIA was basically a delus fan. Most of those people were delus people that he left them behind. That's why we think delus was involved in the assassination because he had tremendous power still influence.

It's common here. I believe it's Ellen Dullis, but if it's his brother, it's just his bad. John Foster Dullis was secretary of state and did a lot of harm. The CIA was a behind-effectivity in this Cuba situation. I mean, there was all these people had to be managed. There was five undercover officers. We'd like to have the files on them. People like David Atley Phillips. William Harvey for Christ's sake. One of the character he was, he ran an operation with Roselli. This is that parallel operation. This is what you have to understand. We have Mungus, which is operational, not that long at the time, nine months or something. It doesn't work. It's all PR bullshit. Like the CIA says, the landscape leaves and they let it go. Mungus dies. Meanwhile, the secret plots from the CIA, even Henry loose for Christ's sake. He was a publisher, time-life, one of the most influential who was always pressing Kennedy to go to war on Cuba. Even he said he was mounting an operation privately, privately, capitalizing it to attack Cuba. In other words, private citizens were getting involved. But essentially, the CIA never let up. They were planning to assassinate him on the day of Kennedy's death. There was a plot, a Z.R. rifle. One of those plots. There's a lot of plots against Castro. I remember I met him. I went down to see him. You're very interesting, man. He told me about some of these plots and how crazy the Americans could get to do. Do you speak Spanish?

Yes. But he was eloquent in both languages. He understood what I was saying. I didn't have time, but I just managed I should have.

But that wasn't his only thought. He had a lot of things to deal with, right? That's the problem, right?

Well, yeah, by 60. He said statements about the generals. He said, you know, they're not worth a bucket of piss and whatever it was. You know, they're not generals think they know everything. They always want to go to war. They want to, they want the parades, but they don't want the casualties. They don't want the casualties. They don't want the result. And that's true for the United States. We go to war with a lot of hoopla. And we come out, we leave our people. We leave our people who go over there and mostly in very difficult states, either suicide or better end hospitals with limbs belong off. It's not fun or we treat it like, I think the United States has never experienced a war. I think that's a problem. On our shores. Yeah. And when we do, we're shocked. So we have a distorted perception of what war is. I think the Russians are much more realistic because every Russian is related to somebody who was killed in World War II. Right. Well, it's in their hearts, it's seared in. And I can't speak for the Chinese, but they lost like a couple million men in Korea. So they must have been a lot of family paying there.

The tracheotomy.

Well, that comes out later. Yeah, although some people didn't see it, but 40 people what the ARB did, thank God, was collect all the people who saw the mirror exit wound and it was huge. We showed it in the film. We showed the 40 people who saw it.

Yeah. Well, I'm so glad our documentary, and this is James D. Eugenio, who wrote it, you know, he's really the guy who reads everything, remembers everything through all these years, and there's a million documents. that we drove a stake through the magic bullet that's clear there's no chain of custody of the FBI law they also in the in the matter of the autopsy that the brain is intact. And it was photographed as such. It was a clean, the whole area was still there. Whereas it's impossible because the brain was seen, you see, you see, it's spraying out in the car when there's a pruder film. You see, the nurse's Audrey Bell is talking about it's, I can't remember the medical term, whatever it's called. It's spilling out on the floor of Parkland. Yeah. And when they weigh the brain as they do it in the autopsy, it comes out normal.

A little bit larger than average, like it's impossible. And what's more important is, and this drives us to take again to the heart of the photographer of the autopsy John Stranger, the autopsy photographer. He's a straight guy, you know, pro-worn, commission, all that stuff. They bring him back, the R.B. brings him back, and they show him the photos that we now have of the, that are in the National Archives. And he says, that's, I never photographed that. Right. It was a, he took an up view of the brain. He never took a basilar view from the below. I never thought I'd have that. And that's very important.

Yes. I don't know about the evidence, but definitely the photograph shows that they had been pulled in. The shot is bizarre. It's bizarre shots, but so the autopsy is off. The brain is off. Photos are off. Then you go, you know, the garrison trial revealed that the all one of the autopsis Peter Fink saying that they were not in charge of the autopsy. The military was. Right. He couldn't, they wouldn't let him put his finger in the back hole. Right. They told them what to do. And they were very bullying. In fact, there was, can you imagine having doing an autopsy on the president and having 20 or 30 people looking at you from a gallery?

Don't touch that. Right. Don't do that.

So you have to think that they have the best autopsy people in the world, civilian all around Washington. Why would they call them in? Right. There's no desire.

You have a course at Johnson Fear that it would get it become hysteria, Russia or Cuba being accused of killing him, and it would be a situation that they can no longer control. That's legitimate excuse to cover up. You know, one interesting story. It's in the four-hour version, not in this two-hour version. That's coming out in the end of February. And we show a moment in the autopsy where one of the technicians What the doctor looks up, he says there's cigar smoke, blurring this thing. I mean, it's just cigar smoke smells, covers up the air and stuff. You don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and you don't smoke a cigar and blow smoke in his face and the guy wrote he was a you know technician he just wanted it's on the truth walks back couldn't get him to put this cigar wow that's pretty interesting let me also was not that day all his movements by on the on the plane were not did not correspond to what he was supposed to be. He was in Canada or something. It's a crazy little story, but so let me, it was no friend of Canada because they had to have several battles.

Looking down at your naked. Looking down at your naked enemy in front of you.

That's not evidence, but it's interesting. It's interesting. It's interesting. It's definitely not evidence. And then, of course, we, in the film we go into, this is very important, the Oswald alibi. It's probable that he was not on the sixth floor. Right. We know this because of the three secretaries, women who were at the fourth floor window, and they were looking at the parade, and they saw him shot, they freaked out. two of the women immediately ran down the stairs to see what was going on in the street and went down the street one of them stayed up on the third floor that was the supervisor Dorothy Garner this only know because of the stroud document which came out in the ARB again years later this was In 1997, Mary Joe Stroud was a D.A. and Dallas. She interviewed the Dorothy Garner, who told her the story and she verified it to the Warren Commission. They ignored it. because they changed the story on the three women. The two women actually, the first woman they said had taken longer to get down the stairs, which would have given us all the time to get off the six floor down. I don't know how he would have done that because he had to stash the rival. He had to do all this shit and there was all these boxes in the way and he had to go down the stairs at full speed and beyond the second floor to be seen by the cop.

The rifle doesn't have any chain of custody at all. No, the bullets for that matter. And was there evidence anything?

It was fingerprints. But they didn't work because it was a partial. And the guy who really knew fingerprints said it wasn't true. Really. Yeah. No, nothing. Nothing.

But like where? Well, it could have been Dal-Tax.

There's a lot of, we're two. That's in that crowd. You know, like Kenny McDonald was in the car right behind Kenny. He'd experienced infantry warfare. He said there was a volley.

How many shots did he describe? I don't remember if he's saying, but I think you have to say four or five, maybe six, but we don't know.

We'll never quite know. Because we have the guy on the curb, James, he gets bitten the cheek by a fragment. Mm-hmm. There's a Harper fragment, which is found in the street the next day. The Harper fragments, the right size. Oh, it's a different fragment. Harper fragment is because he the guy found it was a kid. Harper fits right into the area that they think was blown out on the on their year skull. And they had that in the disappears. The Harper fragment.

Yeah, you mean about lifting the body? David Lyfton? David Lyfton? Yeah. Yeah. Do you, Jamie Os, it doesn't believe it, but I'm not going to get into that because it's a whole other theory that he was, they worked on his body before it was autopsy. I don't think so. I'm not sure because they wouldn't fix the brain at that point. I don't know enough about lifting a theory, but I trust Deugenio.

Not all, not all, but our shit load of strange stuff happened. Yeah, absolutely. It was scary for the witnesses. Yeah. Garrison ran into that problem, you know, his witnesses kept vanishing on him, including David Farrier died during the process as well. And for that matter, Guy Bannister, who was the kingpin of the right wing group that was managing Oswald in New Orleans.

Could have been the dial text. I'm doubtful now, and as you know, in my film in 91, I showed, I dramatized it perhaps too much, I think, having a team of shooters up there because I don't know how they got out. But I just don't understand it. With these, they're testing money of these three women. being revealed in the 90s. I'm talking about Vicki Styles, Sandra, Sandra, whatever, and Dorothy Garner. These are secretaries. They pay attention to details. They know when they left that window. They got downstairs in less than a minute. Warren Commission changed it to more than a minute. And they didn't even interview the other woman around on the stairs. They just didn't want to. They didn't hear stuff. Because it was inconsistent. So they just credit the single witnesses they were able to discredit, but they're not able to discredit three witnesses, including a supervisor, Dorothy Garner, who saw these women run down the stairs right away.

I keep getting asked that question.

I don't I don't it doesn't I don't know. You don't know. Yeah. It was somebody on the grass, you know, for sure. That's water.

I'm just trying to make judicious. Okay. The very important these three women, the Stroud document. Very important. They ignored it. Right. This is the district attorney and Dallas. I mean,

Absolutely, because there's only one exit to stairs. What about the offices? 63, by the way.

Oh, tip it. Yes. That's a strange story too because physically it doesn't work the geography. The distance traveled the shots. No one saw it. I mean the bullets. Why did they attribute it that? Oh, that's that's that's a red herring. You know, you go down that path you end up speculating. Right, sip it. No, I don't go there because I feel like he went right. I think he went as Roger Craig said, the policeman, he got in a rambler, whatever was a rambler, he got micked up by two Cuban-looking guys and driven away.

In second floor. He was on the second floor. He was spotted there by Mary and Baker within 90 seconds of the assassination. And truly, Roy truly, the supervisor. So we know he was on the second floor, which makes sense, because he was having lunch.

six to five five to four four to three three to two okay that's fine anyway if you're right forced on anyway the women would do not see him okay you got to stash the rifle right the bullets he leaves in this bizarre pattern right there puts the rifle away finger prints apparently are all over it but he doesn't care He runs down the stairs and there's boxes in the way. Yes, move past them. And of course, and get down there and be out of and not out of breath quite normal without very calm when truly.

I think that was a little screw. You think that happened before the women got there. No, no, I don't think that would take the women to run from the window on the fourth floor to the to the stairs. It's it's a quick run.

Yeah, but he's unsigned. So we don't know. Okay. Well, as you know, from my film, he walks out, calm as a co-comber, such a book. Yeah. And then, of course, he disappears into this, I believe this rambler. Do you think did he take him to his boarding house where he gets a pistol? Right. Because he knows something's up, and he knows, I believe he hadn't rendezvous with the theater. with, he needed help. He knew he was, he had handlers. People who, he might have been able to want it to see. So, he made that phone call to, was inside Carolina, couldn't get the guy he was trying to get up.

No. No. You don't. I don't think so because his wife, who I interviewed, just told me he had good feelings about Kennedy. If anything, he would have feed her. Her, this was a foot. He wanted to help. And there is that mention in the Chicago story that an informant called Lee called the FBI to tell them that this thing was a foot. Right. We don't know if it's the same Lee. It seems to me he cared about the president.

Well, it was the last chance, you see, because he was going to another security place that wouldn't have been possible together.

He was expendable. They used them up when they needed to for low level stuff. It's a low level hit. The 38, it was at a 38 years. Boy, blew out his insides. It was very painful for Oswald, those last few minutes. It was a gut shot. No, I think Ruby is interesting. In case, of course, he goes on to change his story. He says, I know everything I know a lot. And then he gets cancer. Now, cancer is an interesting thing, too, because How do you develop cancer so quickly and die? There is ways to do that. That was, they were experimenting on killing Castro that way. Oxner, how alt and oxner was the leader of the experiment in New Orleans, who actually in Oswald crossed Paswell. So they were working on toxins that could kill people as quickly as possible. They tried it with Lamumba. They were going to try it with Castro.

I don't know the details.

I have to check that out.

But I do know that Ruby did testify to the warrant. The warrant commission people came there and he talked to them and it's a scene in my film. He said, I can tell you a lot if you bring me to Washington. Right. I am sure of safe conduct. Right. Safe. They scared the shitless. Yes. And they wouldn't do that. I can't believe it. Why not? I wonder why. Because no, these things are so bureaucratic the way they're done. The way they handle the Harvey Oswald during those all those hours. that testimony is priceless what did he say we have no clue really no clue and except for what he said in the corridor and there's no there's no transcript of the no transcript they didn't keep a transcript which is crazy they didn't even how do you do that didn't take it how do you do that when you have a guy who supposedly just shot the president and you know it was so the whole thing is so amateur how can these people defend the war in commission it was such a joke yeah they could not the basic first step of any homicide investigation was well now the cops on the scene they did try they did label things they did they was they tried to establish chain of custody right away but they broke down as it was going through the stages because you know FBI gives us this to the secret service he goes And that's what we found out when we followed this chain of custody. Not doesn't follow.

That bothers me, though. No end. And they dismiss our arguments. They ridicule me as a messenger of Looney. Yeah. Looney left this bullshit. Right. And they keep saying it. And they don't even look at the new evidence that we've presented. We've worked very hard to gather all this evidence in this new documentary. and I haven't seen one critique of actually what we said in the film.

It's silly. You get involved in nuclear physics is ridiculous. It's just common sense. Yeah, and people knew it. I think at the time they knew something was not most of the people ran towards the the grassy known. They didn't run to the sixth floor, most of them yard their shots.

No, and now here we go into a hole. Don't go there either because there's strange bullets show up. There's another bullet that shows up. We showed we discussed that in the film. It's another bullet. Right. And there was one found on that stretcher. That's a magic bullet. Right. And then there's another bullet that disappears. There is another bullet. Look at the documentary again. And there is a chain of custody on it through, I think, three people. And then it disappears at the secret service. I believe somewhere it disappears. So we don't know. What's in him? We know about the guy at the sidewalk take who gets a fragment.

That's what they said.

But they're the other bullets disappear. I mean, where's the economy bullet? That's the magic bullet they say. Right. That's what they say. But Connelly was probably was hit separately from Kennedy in the back.

We call for the DNA test on him, but they wouldn't allow it. It's not nearly when he died. No, he would not allow us to request the DNA trace on his wrists. What would that have done? Might have shown a trace of which bullet, the bullet.

So you tell me that those are details I cannot answer. But as to the bullets, it's a very good question. Where's the tracking out of me, bullet? Where'd that go? Right. Where'd that go? If that was, it should have gone.

Well, it's, we know that it's not. It doesn't fit the chain of custody. No, I mean, they lied about it.

The media stinks. I mean, can you really believe our American media would just walk away from this? It's like they're laziness, or they're just ashamed that they didn't do their job on that day. They just went along because they were scared. Now, maybe Johnson fed them the same story that, listen, he called in New York Times. We got Cuba. We're going to have a war here if we don't get shut this down. We got to Oswald did it in a long time. Maybe that was enough justification for them. Oh, President says we're going to war. Right. Maybe Jesus Christ. But you know, in the years since then, why haven't they been? Why haven't they been responsive? They ridiculed everything. We've done everything the assassination community has proven.

It's true. It's easy to go when you have to believe the majority. It's easy to believe the majority. Yeah. I want to bring just mention two books that really crucial to understanding the foreign policy of Kennedy. First of all, there's been a whole slew of them from historians like Richard Mahoney or D.L. in Africa. David Talbot wrote a beautiful book. Two beautiful books. One is called Brothers. It's not the one that there's another brothers. But brothers, it's about Robert and Jack. And it's the detailed story of what happened in these last two, three years. And then there's Douglas' book, James Douglas' book, JFK, and the unspeakable. Those three are just crucially necessary to understand Kennedy's policies.

We're going to get a better understanding of your good question. This is all personal, I don't know. If they see the experience, if they understand the expertise that the SSO Nation community is brought to these documents, If I had done it, something illegal, I would feel like I had to be really careful. These people are not stupid. They're not back in 1963 now. These people are really checking it out. And we have a lot of information. It's in the documentary and you see it. So what are you going to do? You have to really go back over any files if you're seriously thinking and brushing them and think about what can come out. I'm curious, but I doubt that there'll be something that we can lose. However, I've been wrong before. You don't know what these people are very smart. And they go through stuff. You can't believe the detail.

They won't even cover this. Yeah. Listen, we couldn't get finance in this country. We had to get finance from England. It was an independent company. Really? We couldn't get distribution. We went to Con. We had tremendous reception at Con, at Rome, festival, and at Dovelle. We sold European countries, but nothing from the US. It was only at the last second year. It was a showtime came in. Thank God for them.

And the reviews? We don't see reviews. Of course. Except for a few nasty attacks in Rolling Stone and this. And Rolling Stone attacked it. Yes. Oh, how cute. Well, that's how you know you're doing well. They're no longer serious.

Right. Yeah. I got you come as a CIA who reviewed it. And he didn't review any of the things we were talking about. He reviewed me really.

What was the gist of their article that I had fallen for Russian disinformation? That's a great narrative. What a good one. Yeah, though they tying me to the Russian, because I defended Russia, and I never believed in the Russia gate stuff, and never believed it.

I know, but boy, we fucking swallowed that for three or four years. Exactly. We wasted so much time. But they tied me to this QNON now they said that I'm in white. I'm the guy, the conspiracy guy who put out, who inspired these people to QNON who loved.

new owners.

Yeah. Yeah, it's just, and also, Washington Post has been attacking the, with editorials, but they don't, again, deal with anything. Right.

So brilliant. This guy in the, the guy in Washington Post has, Stone ignores the kind of these inclinations towards Warren. He says, he has speech at the Fort Worth that the day he died. Well, we will look at the speech. The speech is very interesting. First of all, he has got to get elected in 64. That's the reason he went to Texas. Johnston didn't really want him to go because he was worried. But Kennedy wanted to go and he needed the South because the South had turned against him. George Wallace at Alabama. And Mississippi, he had sent troops to Mississippi. He was hardcore about getting these students into those colleges, and he won both cases. Mississippi and Alabama. And as a result, he lost itself. He knew it. So he needed the votes in Texas.

No, he actually gave a lot of peaceful statements, but there was four contractors, major, arms contractors there in Fort Worth, General Dynamics, Mungum, and he had to appeal to them, but he didn't call for war. But he was trying to get their support. Yes. So I mean, they'll use anything, any scrap of little evidence to point out, including this Russian disinformation. You see, they attack the messenger. They don't attack them.

These are smart people, but they're really turning the blind eye. Purposefully.

That's a very important question. What degree of penetration the government has had in the media? Right. And it was raised in the 70s, as you know, heavily, because we found that there was a lot of CIA assets in the media. Yeah, they existed, and it goes back to the 50s. Again, the United States changed after World War II. Kennedy was almost like a throwback, trying to say, let's go back to the vision of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. This man wanted World Peace. I want World Peace, and we can have it. And the problem was that the security state had established itself. And here was the state that was saying we need to be emergency preparation at all times. We have to spend like a war economy. Keep the, so there would be no more depression. That was the idea. Yeah. And they had a lot of defenders there. They had the famous Paul Nizzi who was telling you the story because I interviewed him for Nixon. He interviewed me, tell me the story of how they got this thing going. This whole lobby going to keep the money rolling, big-time money, Wall Street people. Forrestal James Forrestal, all these people were there at the beginning. Keep the money rolling. Right. That was the key. So this is an inner rectum that existed from 1945 or you can say 47 to 1963. It's an inner rectum. And Kennedy was about to end that inner rectum. Why not? Why can't we go back to being the United States of America? Right. Back to where we were in the 30s here, members.

Well, that's a good question because nothing is think about all the presidents who has done anything to really challenge these motherfuckers.

And you also have to deal with the media. The media would they allow it. You know, this media of ours is a joke. They're in Kuhu. I was watching TV last night in my hotel room here in where am I in Austin, Texas. You know, you have Fox news and you have CNN. They're both nuts. Right. You know, they're giving the news before it even happens. Biden is going to do his soft on Russia or soft on Iran, blah, blah, blah. And they make it the news. We don't know what they're really saying. You can't say anything. You can't even have a phone call with a president of any country without it being reported. Mr. Ported often. Right. This is a crazy time where the media is making up sensationalism to keep it going to keep the cycle going.

I admired put politicians and you may not believe it, but I Good ones are crucial to our survival. Right. And when they talk, they have to have secrecy. They have to have diplomacy. Yeah, I have to have a sense that I can trust you. But I don't want you to walk out of this meeting and all of a sudden, the media breaks with another story. Right. That's always the fear. Right. Same thing was true in the film business I found to the same degree. The media had some aspect controlled what we had to do. Right. You know, we didn't want breaks. You know, it leaks to happen, but it happens now all the time.

I was interviewed by Matt Tai beef on this one with his partner. I was invited Matt ivy's fantastic. Breaking promises or breaking breaking points. Breaking points on soccer. Both are amazing. They were amazing. Grey zone. She's great, Ania, and the son of Bloomberg. I'm not a flexible. Oh, Max Bloomberg. Sure. Sure. I mean, you have to find those, those people are honest. And I think you too. Many, I think that young people, the internet has given us that ability to freedom. We have to keep it now.

Yeah, I like Glenn. I saw him in Rio. I was in Rio, in the Chenaro with Lula. And he has really broke that story in Brazil. Yeah, he saved Lula. You know, that was he saved his noodle. That was a great. Great revelation. He exposed what his enemies were doing and he little got sprung from jail. Yeah, it's extraordinary. It's going to run for president. That was a tremendous public service. But he's also very open to the Kennedy killings. Yes. And I saw him recently. He goes on Tucker Carlson who's apparently the declared enemy of the establishment.

Well, that's why you play a huge role here, Joe. Well, it's bizarre. You have to keep going. Oh, okay. You have an obligation now. Oh, boy. You've entered the mainstream in your own way. You have to keep working. That will that sucks. And on that note, I have to leave you because I got a plane. I have to catch you.

Thank you very much for having me to be more available to you.

It will be wherever around two-hour will be. I hope on all the major shifts.

I don't want to select this.

Oh, boy. I got fucked up on cannabis the other day. Boy, I, I, edibles, you know, and yeah, I stopped smoking in order to do edibles, but I took too much and it really knocked a shit out of the house. It was on Christmas day or something.

How do I? I'm sure you do. Oh, yeah, all the time. I like cookies, but you know, they're not the Oreos from my youth.

I'm the guest.

Thank you.

Yeah, this is history. This is history. One day, 200 years from now, somebody else see it. They'll wake up. This is why we fell apart as a country. I agree. I agree. This is why.

I see. He gave me the bottle.