Transcript for #196 – Yeonmi Park: North Korea

Well, that's a long story. So I was born in the northern part of North Korea initially and my father was a part of a member and my mom was housewife. I had one older sister. And I remember born in that country. I never thought I was, you know, unusual country. Now I'm thinking of what it is, literally called her making them. But I thought I believed that I was living in the best country on earth. It was a socialist paradise and everybody in the rest of the world worshiped my ideal leader. And there was nothing to envy for me. So I had this enormous pride in my heart. and grateful to be in that country.

For me at least, it was love. Yeah. It was the moderation and gratitude. It changed lately, but for me was pure, pure like love.

The fact that I did not know, like in North Korea, this is the only country in this 21st century, has no internet. And they don't even know the existence of internet. Now only that, we don't even have this 20, like 24 electricity. So not knowing definitely helped, I think, to be saying.

I think my happiness was from family. Nothing else. Even though those day was key telling me that they were our source of meaning and happiness, I don't think I ever got happy by that. Maybe they were here in their schools and when I was learning propaganda, like, you know, the proud feeling, right? I mean the greatest nation. Here and there, but actually true happiness came from laughing with my family and my friends.

I mean, whenever I think about my North Korea, the interesting is there's no color. I mean, one is because North Korean country has no color, right? Most of things are on paved. And trees all cut down. We have no fear. So people are cut down trees to make food. But only that, like even what we were wearing was like no color. So it's an interesting memory to look back.

There was no word for fashion in North Korea. We didn't even know, it was not even our dictionary. So of course, I didn't know what victory is. Secret models, I didn't even know what models were. So when I came out, I learned the model was a job. And what is that? And I'm still confused. So there's so many jobs that we have here that's in North Korea.

I think that's the thing like when people were asking me, can you tell me about life in North Korea? And in the past, I was like, I cannot describe it to you. And initially, I thought, oh, because of my English that I cannot find the words, it's not that it's just a different planet. The common sense that we have, doesn't exist there. Like people literally do not know the concept of romantic love or human rights or liberty. So when I'm thinking back to my country, it's, you know, like, as you cannot imagine your life on Mars right now. It's like that kind of difference. I grew up never seeing the map of the world. I never knew that I was Asian. Like the regime told me that I was Kim your son, but first Kim race. And then our calendar doesn't begin when Jesus Christ was born. Our calendar begins where Kim was born. So we and history was forgotten to us. They didn't touch us about of course Christianity or like the Big Bang. Like our history began when Kim was born. So everything was forgotten to us. And it was like different meaning. I mean, feeling of existence. You know, it's not even like the same life. I literally think that was almost my past life. And it's like a new life that I began.

Absolutely. Yeah.

So after going to what I went through, and I arrived in South Korea after many years of journey. They were saying, so Kim's were dictators and South Korea is now colonized by American pastors and Americans first were not pastors, they're good people. And then they said, everything that you believe in North Korea was alive, it was a propaganda. Then at 15, I was thinking, so if everything that I believe was alive, how do I know what your telling is not alive? That was so hard. How do I trust ever again? And I just, it was chaos in belief, right? I did not know what was true anymore. And that's the moment, few years later, I read this book, like, Animal Farm. Just by mistake, it was a very short book in the library. I was like, okay, I can finish that quickly. And when they're ending that, like, last chapter, right? They could not see between the pigs and humans anymore, right? That sentence. I understand everything what happened. I just made every sense to me what happened to me and my people and to my country.

It can be, but I think for me was when I was ending the last page of the book. Until that point, I was angry towards a dictator. Why do you do this as a human being? I was so angry, dreaming of killing him, revanging my father, the people that he cared. But when I was in the last chapter, everybody was responsible to create this dystopia in my country. The animals in your animals, when they were scared, when they received the first execution. And then they were not doing their jobs, picking out and keep questioning. They had a question, and then the essence, they see fear, they silence. Because of that, that's when I was like, my grandma knew, life could be different. I think the one thing about North Koreans are unique is that they don't know their oppressed. They don't know that they are slaves to the dictator. And the fact that other people know their oppressed, like in America a lot of people think they are oppressed, like you are not oppressed. You don't even know the definition of oppression. And like that's like when the new animals came, the new animals didn't even know what the life could be like. There's no alternative for them to compare even. And I was like, my grandmother knew. Why didn't they not do anything about it? And they were just scared. They kept silent. And everybody was responsible.

It's a joke because I talk about North Korea every single day and I still rescue people like from China and Russia and other countries, right? And sometimes our rescue mission fails and they get captured and sent back. I still have people in North Korea who support me. So like when I talk to my sister who chose to not be in this life, active in life, she forgot most of things. And for the other hand, I like to remember everything. So sometimes it's a blessing to keep reminding of how, because they say happiness is a relative thing. It is sometimes. I mean, the good thing is also people say, because nobody was falling when you're going up. Everybody was suffering. You should have been okay, right? But not like if you are suffering in that degree. No matter even if there's no comparison, if you were in Nazi Germany in the Holocaust, in the concentration camp, I'm sure nobody was better than them. I'm sure they were suffering. It's the same thing. I suffered. But now, because I'm in this place, I can't compare easily, right? Getting that perspective. But it is true that I still have days that I cannot get out of bed. and I really hoping that it was Elon Musk talking about the downwarding brain blah blah. Yeah. So if maybe take knowledge develops, I can download some part of my memory and then I can erase your life and move the deleted and that is so much better.

Some days I would do it for sure and my mom would do a hundred percent. My sister would do it. Or other defectors know, they do a hundred percent. For me, I will hesitate because I'm a witness. So if I do it that part, I don't know how it will that can be. But it is painful, like, after I've talked to a speech right, I mean, I'm fine. But somehow, I'm depressed. Sometimes, if the talk was very intense, I'm not depressed for three weeks. It takes a while for me to be recharged. But I don't know why it is, you know? Yeah. I just don't know.

Yeah, that's like that's the thing. Of course, in my journey, I learned how to survive, right? Went to not trust and went to run. But I think most of I was keep learning what it means to be a human being. I think that was like ultimate thing I was keep learning. And I still don't know what it means. But I do think it seems like suffering is necessary to stay for people to be grateful and even be joyful to sometimes.

So, the tragic thing about North Korea is not only just banning Shakespeare. We don't even know what it will mean. Our movie is never about love stories, but then also they ban the love between mother and daughter, wife and husband. and you've been between your friends that deny you being a human. So, only love that I knew was when I described my feeling towards the leader and in a written form. That was the only love that people know in North Korea. And now, I'm like, there are many loves. You can experience them. I think you definitely love science, right? But imagine that if you're being denied that. So, there are so many loves in life, but in North Korea, all of those things are denied. And I think for me is love when makes you take like, you know, love for your child, love for your parents, love your friends, love for even yourself. That is denied. So I mean, many people say, like, love is an option, but like, then why do you live? I think we live to love. And it doesn't have to be romantic love. It can be anything. But finding love in any person or in any subject, I think that's a goal. I think that's when people find the meaning in something.

Yeah, that's it. that's only thing that allowed us to fear. And no, but so remember, you read 1984 by Georgia War. It talks about double-think and double-speak, who controls language, who controls dots. And while you just talk about as they go, they're like, you limit a lot of words, right? Now, like, later one word can represent ten different things. And what fascinates me is, like, how many vocabulary meaning people can have. And when I literally came out, I remember, when the San Francisco, and someone came to me and hugged me. And then, he was like, oh, baby, don't worry, I'm gay. I'm like, what the heck is gay? I don't know, right? And then, let's just go to the hotel and go to the gay. I'm like, oh, that's what you meant. And like that, like, they deny what that is. I'm sure they are gay in North Korea. I'm sure there is. But you don't know what it is. And like that they eliminate words. So the fact that you know the concept that is a state much better than and that's a thing a lot of people like you in your born, you somehow know what justice is, what liberty is and it's awesome, but it taught you that. And like that's the thing when people say, oh, humans are inherently know, what is right, what is wrong, what is oppression and like, you know, that's like BS. You gotta learn.

I think a lot to for sure. It is to this day, I'm like, My father who died in China and he was tortured and then he died. He wanted to go back before his death, right? And then it's like, that if you go back, you're going to be executed. And it's like, I want to be executed.

To be executed. So he can be buried in his own land. And then his last wish was, if I die, criminally, and then bring my ashes back to my country. When I'm dead, I still want to be my country. And this is a nationalism. This is a propaganda, right? But now it's the same thing. If I die, I somehow bury it in my land. And I still feel like I'm the outsider. I'm always longing for my home as a hoarder. Like my people say, what's your dream? Do you want to be a president? Do you want for office? I just want to go home. That's my dream, right? And people here don't get it ever.

It is. I think it's becoming new. It has been a very special place in my heart. I think this is the first place I felt like I feel like home. I mean, I was in Saskia longer and I didn't feel that way. So.

Do you think about all the time? Like I had a son when I was 22 and I had IVF three times And I'm like, as you see, I'm like 80 pounds, but back now, I was like 75 pounds. Because of my massive amount of nutrition somehow, my body is very different. And so after three times of baby, I lived at the time of three. I was still wanting family. And the reason I wanted him is, because I felt so guilty for my father, that he never seen this word. I somehow, like when you're so desperate, you become illogical. Like, I want to believe in that I really can't, like, put this idea where you come back to life. And I pray, please come to me and I guess my son, so I will take care of you. I come back. And when I was pregnant with my son, even though I planted pregnant with a girl, Dr. Made me stick, he became a boy. So I made his middle name, my father's name, Shinji. I think he's the only American god-nors Korean name.

That's how I make the sense of it and that's how I move forward. I get you fine. Like, as a logical human being, you know when you're dead, you're done. Maybe, like, that's what I at least used to think. But then life just becomes too unbearable. And somehow, that's the thing, like, we tear out with several stories in order to live. And that's how I came into my title of the Green Order to live. I had to tear myself a lot of stories. To overcome a lot of things. I think I was the biggest part of it.

Yeah, I think it's amazing. Even though I was like 13, my life outside North Korea is almost like wind by like one second. And my life till that point was like eternity. I remember being in China. I arrived at the end of March at 13. And by October with six months passed, And I literally felt like I lived in Turkey. And one day living in China felt like living one year. One day was a war like surviving through one day. It was so hard. Every night I was like, I can't believe I got done one day today. That was the thing I was grateful for. Before I went to bed, okay, I survived. I didn't get captured. And I made it another day.

Fear lasts everything. It's because, I mean, I saw my own mom in China to survive, too. So it was more than that. And it's not feeling, I think that's the thing. In China, I learned not to fear. And after my escape was a challenging. I didn't feel anything. And it was hard. Not feeling anything is a torture. It's a big torture. It can never feel like even your first sadness. That's a better than not feeling anything. And I first told him, and I had my son. That's when I started healing. So he was a miracle to save me. But yeah, in China, he was even fear. Like, it was numb.

Like, what do you even even feature? I don't even know that word. Like, a lot of times I was looking at myself. Like, I left my body and like, you're just looking at me. And just not feeling anything. It's not like, I'm scared of her. I'm like, sad for her. Just looking at me like, oh, that's interesting.

They're not feeling anything. And me being raped, going through every emotion of life to survive, right? But like, like, summer, I don't know if you say so or something like looking at it is like, you feel nothing. You don't feel anything for that person.

Yeah, of course. I think that made me survive. I had a very strong connection with my family. And I think that's what kept me going. to do all of that. I think as you said, I escaped at 13, my sister at the age of 16 escaped with her friend first and I was going to escape with her, but one day I got like really bad stomachache. And my parents took me to hospital. And in North Carolina Hospital, they don't have like three machines. They don't even have electricity. They literally using one need of to inject everybody. And people don't die from cancer in North Carolina. You die from infection and fever. Hungry. It's most likely even died more by being treated by doctor than not being treated. I think I was lucky even though they thought I had appendix. They operate on me without any painkiller. And I didn't get infection. I survived. So that's how I got delayed to escape with my sister. And she left me a note in my bedside saying, like, follow this lady. And this is like another trick about human trafficking, right? She sold me to China as a sexual slave. And she executed for a later.

She had five daughters and she stole all her children to China. And we can now sit in your dressing room like how hard it is you are selling your own children to China. And as a sexual slave, they were like her children were seven, ten years old. But that was the only way for her to save her children. And if she didn't serve me that they would be dead right now. So I'm grateful that she sold me. And I think that's the thing, life is so crazy. You cannot judge. It is so complex. And yeah, that's how she changed my life by selling me. She sold my mom and myself in 2007 to China.

Of course, I am grateful.

I will not be here with you. You'll never knew what I just said.

I think that's when I get angry. I think about them. Like, I know.

the hardestness of people, the ignorance of people, like, so when I got out of North Korea, I went through all of them and I went to South Korea one day. I was watching television and there's like a famous Korean K-pop stars and crying and doing some fundraising concert. And I literally thought, I was like, oh my god, something is a horrible going wrong in this country. Why are these people crying? It was cherry, like campaign, and then later it was showing that it was an animal-wise campaign to helping out cats and puppies in the shelters. Do you know anybody has their tears like that? Tell another human being right now? Like, no, right? People rather give millions of dollars to save some dolphins than saving these children right now, being raped in China. And I think I love it almost. I read this way. I love these people when I go to the moon, Mars. And people told them, like, yeah, we went to the moon, like, I didn't know, in North Korea. But I think that's what obsessed me, like, why there's not even one single human with that kind of brilliance in their brain. They can't save so much suffering, but nobody does anything. I think that's midnight. I feel like I have to find hope in humanity. And that's when I get so upset. Because I think about like even Biden or Trump or Obama, they know what's happening in North Korea exactly. I mean, we see satellite photos, there's public executions. I mean, the UN says this is the Holocaust happening again. And it's happening for the Holocaust happening again. How? Why? How are you okay doing nothing about it? But somehow, humans are able to get nothing anything. And this is like, this is a hard. Like when people say, I'm going to change the world, I want to make a difference. It's a hard to believe it. You know.

No, it's not easy, like it doesn't think. I was like here to speak at the South by Southwest years ago. And they were everywhere talking about, like Elon Musk project going to the moon, right? We're gonna be more special, like species. I was like, like, not even know who he was. So if you're trying to go as a Earth, you haven't even explored our Earth yet. You cannot go to North Korea right now. You haven't explored that part of our planet. Can we do that first and then move on?

It's the thing right now, like the China, like they bring the Xinjiang Wigur right there. They say, oh, it's a vitamin-take-it, and then it gives their sperm to make another produce. Their birth rate gone down something 47 to something 50% in the one-year time. It's a genocide in 21st century. And they get those people and get their organs out. Imagine if there's some people who do that with the curie puppies and cats. There's going to be insane amount of protein. They're going to destroy everything. And this is like a human nature that I don't get. why there's so much anti-human sentiment in this modern world. We don't have to. The fact that I was saying like the fact that you care about animals, right? It's beautiful because you care about something who cannot speak for themselves. The fact that we care about animals is because they cannot speak for themselves, right? They don't have that ability. And there are many people who cannot speak for themselves, right now. And why do you refuse to be the voice for them? Because they're simply being a human. And maybe it connects to us, not being proud of who we are. Like, maybe I don't know what it is, why do they deny humans this way? Maybe they don't like themselves.

Then the first thing that we can do is speak about Chinese law in this sponsored dictatorship in North Korea. Like, I happen to have so much struggle talking about North Korea, right? They say, how North Korea is possible? Why is it like the way like this is? 99% of accountability is going to CCP. Kim Jong-un cannot last, without Chinese happy one one week. This is completely funded, this whole process of funded by CCP. But if you talk about the animation, of course, don't buy it. And I think it's in a way in our career, it's a lot easier to solve than even in the Middle East. There's nothing conflict like between people. There's no ideology, no religion, nothing. People are peaceful, right? There's not even one civil, like any of this continent among the people. All problem is, there's a dictator funded by the Second Economic Power in the world. And even any military, they know if they kill Kim Jong-un, they're gonna get killed by Chinese. Nobody can dare to stand up against Kim Jong-un because of China's backing. So somehow, here in the West, we collectively acknowledging that China is the responsible person for this crimes against humanity in North Korea. Then we can somehow

They have tried that. Because of the sunshine policy, which is, there's two people walking down the street and the sun and the wind made a battle. So who can take off that man, take off jacket? So when tried blow as much air as it could. And then that man was like putting more like his jacket on, right? Not taking off. But sunshine came up and came when I gave him a lot of warmth. And then he took his jacket out and came out. So that was the theory. Let's give North Korea as much and love if they want. Let's give them a lot of money. Whatever they want, let's give to them. Today, know that we are not here to attack them. And North Korea, what they did is the guy who did a sunshine policy in South Korea, named Kim Daejun, one of the Nobel Peace Prize for that. And Kim Jong-il used the money to build a nuclear weapons. So that's how they came to the nukes. So I think that's the thing. I hope you'll love those problems.

I love your optimism. I have seen the actual dark side of China on the underground. I hope I think that's the thing. People in the West, right? They said, oh, how can you be that bad? They asked me like, I walking passing with a young teenager man and nailed the world with my sister. He's like, in testing and coming out through his bad way. And even in that moment, what he wanted was, please give me food. He was hungry. his intestinal is hanging out of his body and he's asking for food. Do you know where humans are at the man when they die in North Korea? All they want is eating, right? Yeah. And people say, oh, nothing can be that bad. But people just hear that they haven't seen an actual true evil.

I think humans are capable of anything. There's no exception. And there's anything to form the morality. I think in North Korea, you can say initially that there's few guys in the top. want to the power. And then doing this. But eventually it made a society where people don't even know what compassion is. We don't know the concept of, we don't know that you need to feel bad for another human being and they're suffering. The fact that you know compassion is in your knowledge. That's what you do that. Humans need to learn. It's not anything bad about human nature. It's just saying, humans are capable of everything. We are the most adaptable species on the planet. That's why we created the internet, talking this way, right? No other animals have done it because we are so adaptable. That is a good thing and that's a bad thing. So in that adaptation, they all can be, I mean, during the Holocaust, right? Those people, they could have been capable of good too if they were exposed to different systems. And that's why when people underestimate evil, that's what scares me. Evil is evil. It's a different thing. It's a completely different thing. And of course, like, let's get your idea. We don't want to isolate 1.3 billion human beings in honor of Chinese. But the thing is, we are talking about this regime. Not the people. I love Chinese people. I speak Chinese. I love all about the country, but the system does promote evil.

They were not that nuclear war. as long as they can do whatever they want right now. Right? North Korea's army, not designed to fight the enemy. They designed to prevent their own people to coup-de-ta and revolution their own citizens. That is 1.6 million North Korea with a tiny country. The four largest armies in the world. So this country designed to fight their own citizens.

Yeah, so that's a very interesting thing, right? Right now, there are a lot of people playing with this ideology of like democratic socialism, socialism, communism, whatever you call, Marxism, Latinism, right? They have all like this similar features where we give collective power to a certain entity. And they would make the decision for the bigger good, right? And North Korea came up with the idea, the Kim Il-sung. He was the Latinist. He was a Marxist. Saying, I'm gonna create the most equal society on human face. So it was a communist North Korea. And then they came up with these hungry systems, like family caste system. three big categories, warrior, revering, and hostile. And that in between three classes, they divide into 50 different classes. So a lot of people don't even know which exact class you belong to. That's a sacred government document. And that's how they decide your future. So in a way, North Korea, before you're born, your life is determined for you. And this is almost joke, right? They dreamed of creating the most equal society. They ended up with became most in equal society in the face of humanity. So there are 50 different classes, and where the one guy on the top became a god. So when this animal farm as we keep saying, like, there's so many, all the animals are equal, and some of animals are equal to another. Exactly. But it's not only, it's just more equal. One guy in order to become a god.

So to take a very unique, it came around the 90s after soviet and collapsed. So before that North Korea was very still loyal to the Marxism and nationalism, which is, they take care of you. We are going to give you the right education, health care, your livelihood, your everyone is going to be equal, you're going to have in the working collective farm, collective workplace. Everybody collectively do things together and let's work for the paradise. But 1991, the Soviet Union collapsed. And until then, North Korea was heavily subsidized by Soviet Union's aid. And then, the Soviet Union didn't give it anything. So, not 3 million people dying on the streets. The regime then came up with the idea, okay, our goal is what is successful in for us is keeping the 10%. of population alive, which is in the capital Pyeongyang. So they designed the hunger games. There is a capital, 13 other districts. Everybody on the countryside, on purpose being stopped. So those people who are starving cannot thinking about many of life, cannot thinking about choosing to the moon, right? They are not going to think about anything. All they are going to think is like finding a meal.

all of them is man-made feminine. International community was begging to give North Korea food. Why not still at the UN? They beg to give North Korea a formula medicine and food. They are begging, can you please feed your people and give them something? Thank you. Last year, like, we launched a horrible hot-of-floating South Korean press of the begging. Can you get, can I give you a please on medicines like no? Because he wants to be the one provider. He doesn't want people to think other people giving him the thing. So on purpose, other people are starving. And the two challenges, that's when you're coming from. So until that comes, it's about like, state is being a father figure. Text care of all your needs, right? Give the power to us and you're all good. But North Korea regime says, okay, now we cannot give people's ration, so which means two timings, self-reliance. You need to take care of yourself while you're giving every right to us. So now, in the 90s, the regime told us, okay, we are not going to give you ration, you cannot trade that's illegal, but you find your own way to survive. So be self-reliant. That's what you say is. And you know, but when your God, you can do whatever you want. You don't need to make a sense. That's a difference being a God and being a leader. Even in this religion, it's not forceifiable. You cannot challenge it. God's way is suspicious. God works in a mysterious way. So when your God, people not gonna say, oh, this doesn't make sense, right? You're gonna, okay, whatever God says, as a human being, we can never change this thought. It's unbelievable what regimes can do.

And North Korea, too. They humans. Right now, in 21st century, 7 billion people on this earth, right now, you make the enough for 10 billion people. Nobody should start being right now. As a worrisome to me, the humanity is moving forward with the technological advance blah blah. We are going so fast in advancement. And we are living this like 25 million human beings in the cage, completely living them behind. and those kinds of living like six in centuries. I never, like this morning I was taking shower, beautiful shower. Like one never knew what shower was. I was a bathing few times a year going to like a river. How do I even know what shampoo is? And this is how human beings in 21st century living. And it doesn't bother us and rather most of the people are obsessed with being a vegan. And like how, how do you reconcile this?

And China, that's what it takes. Chinese Communist Party is impossible. That's why we couldn't solve North Korea for that many decades.

but North Koreans don't have electricity, no internet. So we can do that with China, we can do it a lot of African-differential countries, right? I do think big cryptocurrency is such a fascinating technology, right? I think this is an amazing experiment. That power is in our hands. I'm the huge out of game bliver. But think, no, it's too behind. You know, that's what is unique about North Korea. Most of things that we talk about is now a place different planet literally to come and know that we have is now pretty cool.

Kim Jong-un?

So with Kim Yersung, I can't give him more than I feel that. He was a immature true believer of communism. But then, as later he gained a power, he realizing I think I can expect that he thought most of the people are done. My individual is done. So, therefore, I need to make the decision for all of you. That pure arrogance came from out of him. Even that I can tolerate. Okay, fine. And Kim Jong-yar, who never like, yeah, fine. He grew up in the system too. But Kim Jong-un is very unique. This guy was educated in Switzerland in the heart of democracy. He knew how human beings should be treated. As a child event, when you are child, your brain is very susceptible. But you change anybody. Like, why the mom was so obsessed with changing young people's minds? Like, that's every revolution that they do, right? They go change young people's minds first. This guy was so upset with the power, him being a god, even starting in Switzerland didn't change him. And that's why I think that's a pure evil. You know, I can't give him more benefit to his grandfather and father. But when he comes to Kim Jong-un, this is what pure even looks like. Pure selfish being. That's what he looks like.

I think in his life, I read a lot of, like, North Korea, a lot of CIA documents, a lot of intelligence people worked there and even, like, worked in North Korea and tablets and escaped, I hear about them. So Kim Jong-un, when they were born, they treat like gods. So they never have a sense of them being a human. They're like equal to others. For them, like we are just any kind of tool. Like that, we're not pulling that, I think that's right. Anybody's a tool like once box or dies, get them slaughtered for my cause. And they do not even feel guilty about it because they don't view us that you deserve your world ill with. Yeah, that's right. So it's not like he even feels he doesn't even reckon that that's a suffering. Like, of course, you, this is what you do serving me because I am, I am this. So I think that's like beyond that. It's not like suffering is enters his minds. He doesn't even think what we go through.

What? Anybody knows what they're going, but Kim Jong-un does, it's live, nobody knows. I'm sure she, I know, spend the day may never review that. She has enough intelligence to counter where Kim Jong-un is, what is it doing? They just don't assassinate him because you don't see that. Because you think they can assassinate him?

Because they don't care. They don't care about the suffering of 25 million people. They gotta pay the price if they assassinate him. They gotta pay the price.

Absolutely. That is a huge piece for them.

Yeah, that's the thing. That's why they don't want to take that risk. They don't want to do anything. The US now became very passive when they pursue these motor values to the rest of the world.

Yeah, they were just... They didn't care. And that's what they're always policy has been. They don't care. So if Kim Jong-un dies, it's gonna be very hard for North Korea to replace anybody in his position because Kim's is a brand. It's not just like a leader for us, right? Whenever we think of Kim who came with my mind, like who's like almost God figure. The North Korea is a number of 10 religions in the world. They copy the Bible. So if you believe that, if there are people believing the God and just Christ, How do you not believe the North Korean believe in the same thing? So Kim Il-sung's grandfather and his parents were the Vaah Christians. So Kim Il-sung was grew up this Christian like word versus. So when he finding his country, he says, I love my people so much that I'm giving him my son Kim Jong-il. He's body dies, but he's spiritually does forever. Who can know how many here I have, what I think, and when we suffer, we go to paradise video. And when you block everything information going to the country, of course, people are going to believe it.

He has a son, a first son born 2009, and not all enough if he dies now. So either his sister might rule for a short amount of time as not like a leader, but like we play like temporary placement. And then when the son is older enough, he might take it off because it's a kingdom. That's most likely, and China will do everything they can to maintain that status quo for the Norwegian region. So North Korean people have no option here. We just need some later to cover, just come up and do the right thing.

No, we can't. It's not something that takes its course and doesn't change. Like, we not even know that economic freedom does not bring political freedom. We know in China. It doesn't. That's the unique thing about freedom. You gotta fight for it. Otherwise, you don't never get it. Freedom is something has to be fought. And if nobody fighting for freedom, it's not gonna be there.

I think every day I get a new definition of freedom. It is. It's never ending journey, having a relationship with being free. And what it means to be free, right? I think, I think you definitely can live life without being free. And also happy life too. I saw a lot of nursing elites were fed and had power, but didn't have freedom were very happy. In a way happier than the people that I found in Europe were like investment bankers and consultants in Manhattan as 70% of them go to talk therapist. I was very confused. I remember writing my book in New York. Like, my editor was saying, you know, like your traumatized, you need to go talk to the artists. And like, what is their opinion? What is trauma? Because in North Korea, they don't have word for stress or trauma. Because how can you be stressed in a socialist paradise? So they don't know you being knowing what that is. And then they were like, yeah, hearing people having problems go talk with therapists. And I was like, like, how much is that if you're the $200 pull hour, and it's discounted, right, too. It's like, not, thank you. You know, I was like, you know, and we know that freedom comes with responsibility. And in a way, It's not that easy to be free, thinking for yourself, constantly, like when you, in a way I understand, like let's give government, every power we have, let them decide what education that I get, let them decide where I live, like, you know, let someone figure that out for me, and that's how North Korea began, hoping the government can represent my own interest, believing that they were good, and with that benefit of thought and good faith, you began the nightmare, right? So freedom is not like a gay way to be happy at all. In a way it can make life a lot more complex. But then it's fun, isn't it? You start thinking for yourself, you start making mistakes and it's so fun to be free. Even though you can be suffering way more than the people who are not free.

I am not, I mean, I spoke to my grandma as I kept asking my wife's anarchist, right? And he doesn't believe military none of that thing. And I was like, I don't think I want to be in the world. You're describing one that's pretty scary. I want the law enforcement. I want, like, I don't, in a way that, so, why he called the mixed nonsense is that, The fact that when you and I were born, we were born in a very different capabilities of thinking. Different intelligence, different capabilities in our physics, right? So, equality is nonsense. You can never achieve that. So, to me, that's when it's very scary. When the government tries to enforce equality on everybody, that is impossible.

Yeah, so I think that's why government can be bad. They can be very dumb. Another thing is that they cannot know what you want. A lot of times people don't even know what they want at an individual. Like how do you have to you or shame government can't know what is best for you? Nobody knows. We just all do our best. I do think those some governments are in Switzerland. You know, have more give power to the different state. Can be good. I think I'm more in a given power to the state and let individual decide where they want to go in the within states. Like, I mean, why did you choose Texas, right? There's no income tax, right? There's a lot of things people find Texas like, you know, charming and they come here. So in a way that I don't want to be in a one-shone garment, makes every single thing the same way. In a way, I want to kind of experiment to everything. We can have anarchy state. There's no police, nothing going on. You can be who, whatever one you want. And you can go on a state where it's like abortion is bad, blah blah, this is bad, all the conservative values. And let the ideas compete and let them how they are being practiced in real life. But I think it's very scary when the US government is getting bigger and bigger and then they try to make every state under one big government and that's like when I get really alarmed.

Absolutely. It's an American, not a meritocracy, as a matter. It's evil. The white men's idea of talking about if you're competent enough. They say, oh, if you're coming from which white family, you're going to be competent. So other people don't have a chance, but look at Asians, who came from nothing as competent and go to Harvard Law School and Medical School. So it doesn't It's like there's no incentive for you to work hard anymore in the system right now. That is North Korea. There's no incentive because you're born with your class already. So, no matter what you do, you can never do the whole of the thing of a North Korean system is that there's nothing holding marry up. So, if you're coming from other cultures that like make a mark with joint or royal family and she became a royal, you go up. But in North Korea, if someone from high class gonna marry somebody down, you only go down with them. That's how they prevent classmates.

It's literally merit, meritocracy is being demonized right in America. Working hard is a symbol of you coming from some established family. Yeah. The fact that you celebrate a accomplishment, hard work is a sign of your patriotic or whatever thing they call right. And They want to abolish that. They want to start giving kids grades. That's what they're already doing. They want to be sure about the SAT in America. They take to go to college. They want to abolish that. Yes, some kids have no ability to do math. So why do we have to force him to learn math? And that's what comes with humans over calm challenges. That's what makes us special. But then like because his kids coming from this family let's find a reason why they cannot and then they don't have to do that thing. But they still deserve the same job. They need to be a lawyer and doctors. And that's like what in North Korea I was like not. There was not even many talkers to begin with, right? Did you born the same family? The family? The blood, right? Like if one person does something wrong, it's a collective gift. Because I spoke out, the regeneration of my family got punished, who I left behind. And then in America I see the same thing like if you're somehow great-great-grandfather on the slave now you are privileged and you're guilty because you are white and scared and but how do you change your ancestor? How do you have a saying on it? And that is where there's no way out. There's no forgiving. There's no moving forwards. And this current culture in America now like I remember a Columbia like before class everybody have to go around of saying tell us what's your plan on is. And my English, my daughter language, I learned as a daughter, even saying, here in Xi'an confused. My partner is pure mistake, and they say, come today, because I'm gender fluid. Basically, I can be a girl, but next time you talk to me, I'm a boy, right? Yeah. And if you don't do it right, they're like, look at you, why are you big? Right? And this is so nervous. And this is where I come to this is a regression of civilization. We are regressing as a humanity here. The enlightenment, all of those things made us so much brighter and looking forward, now we are going backwards.

I didn't deeply, it made me dumber, it made me scared, it made me terrified, that I had to censor myself in America. Like, are you seriously telling me that you don't ever censor yourself? And when you talk, do you, can you truly say what you want about race? of anything, gender, we all censor ourselves. Let's be honest, right? We are all doing that. And that's what I learned. Like, I thought I was coming to country where never needed that. And I first think my mom told me, growing up in North Korea was, don't even whisper because the birds and mice could hear you. And I thought, okay, now America is a truly the land of the free home of the brave. You can say anything you want. And then you have freedom to change your mind and evolve, right? But the people now demand you to do the perfect version, they demand you to be. You cannot change your mind. And then what is the meaning of life you cannot grow? Where you should be feel safe to talk about anything. And then later, okay, I was wrong. The knife, you do that you got to get penalized for it.

It's like I was there four years. It wasn't like I had a one class that was bad in a one semester. Yeah. That was the even Dr. Piro's asking is there any one class that had no sentiment of this is there's virtually a secondary and politically right.

There was none. entire course. I think I took 126 credits total. Not even one class. Doesn't matter if you're talking about classic art and there's a thing. I literally thought, okay, I pushed the last like the semester to call like the art and music. So I thought it's going to be the least political class I can take. And then it begins with who has problem made, calling this course the Western Civilization Museum of Art and Music. And it was a good reason they were hands. Because why do we have to learn about this better than most art the biggest? And all the people, like you know, everything ruined by white men. And it's even music, even these paintings. And as I didn't raise my hand, everyone was looking at me. How do you not have the problem with us? Like you used to hate us, your Asian. So I think that's the thing. I think the problems with deeper than what people think. And it's, so that's what I when I learned is like, it's not that safe in America. We can go complete to the South. And looking at even Europe, that it's like, I used to be way more optimistic, like, you know, But now I actually see, wow, this country can go to South. And we might, if you were to stand right, this is the only country left to battle with the Communist Party in China. We may lose the opportunity to be free ever again as a humanity.

That's why we need to promote freedom of thinking and speech, right? And one thing that I love about Dr. Peterson is, humans, these psychologists, right? Talks about, we think by talking. That's why when you go to therapy, you talk and then you hear yourself and then you think and you come up to the answer. It's so important for humans to talk. So we can think. So when they say you cannot talk, means you cannot think. And they don't know the consequences of that. And this is why I promote, I want the freedom of speech, even though it hurts, ridiculous, sometimes it can be dangerous. But the price, the alternative is so bad that we should take the, you know, make this trade off, everything as a trade off in this world. And it comes with a sacrifice, right? So I think that's what I'm going to see in America, but it's unfortunately like the people like you say, the who decides what is his speech, what is dangerous. That's what I've been getting scared. Because everybody's imperfect. How do we want to give the power to them and they're going to decide, today they might agree to me, say, okay, you'll speak as good, promote as good, and then they might come back next year, say, you're going to speak as bad. What are you going to do when that happens to you?

So here, my story to Jordan period is very long one. So one day, I was walking down in Chicago. And they were like, huge deer were sold out. He said, big letter Jordan, Peterson, sold out. And then, if he used the deer in the middle of Chicago, like, just in my community, like, who can be selling this entire thing out? And, like, seven feet. And then with my ex husband we were walking the street and we saw people like selling this like tickets like and for a very higher price right and then you want to take it and then he was like yeah sure we ran in it's packed and then I was just a keeper or like, but I wasn't able to understand it's English that much. My English was stupid.

Yeah, it was like 2008.

Yes, I saw Dave Rubin came up before him and made jokes. I still don't know who Dave Rubin is after us. I met them all, but back then I had no clue what that is. And then he was giving me a lesson. But what I got from that, that was not what Jordan said. But what people did on the audience. These people like, I don't know, thousands of people in this big theater, crying like babies. And that's what I was like, whatever that guy is doing is very special, right? He was like making any jokes. He had no slides. Just a warm, simple person standing in the huge radiator talk and no time to and people cry as like, wow, okay, whatever that is, I gotta check it out. And then I got home and then later many years then I got a book. And I was serving his book. And it talks about expense so much, right? Like now, at Columbia Learn, like everything, gender is like a matter of concept, construct. Like the higher keys, my men's idea, make the higher key. And he begins with the number one, the last, the higher keys, evolution of history. That is being asked. They really want the higher key, right? and then chapter five about sociological childhood, you know, how do you raise them? And all of it, and what's why I tell you truth is matters, right? And there's a white, like, in the entire 12 lessons I read it, and there's like, I was so grateful that I'm alive, there's people who always say, if socrates alive, how much would you pay table on truth in? So for me, it was like, okay, I'm like alive in the same contemporary world, one of the greatest singers of my entire generation. And then, like, how much do you bring out with them? Exactly, right? How much do you bring out with them? Exactly, right? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? Exactly, right?

How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with them? How much do you bring out with I was very nervous, but I didn't expect him to be like that connected. Because I thought he was psychologist, like he saw so much suffering in the world. He studied surveying, and he's hardly collecting those things to remind him of the suffering we human being. So sometimes some people hear so much atrocity, they become like, very, you know, not engaged. He had this sense of death.

Absolutely. So back then when I reached out, Michael drew me a true friend in South Korea, my English wasn't good. So I got a copy in my hand. I tried to read and a lot of them I didn't understand. So, but I thought it was very fascinating how he explained Norse could do the leader's perspective, right, as nobody has ever done that. And you can review so much about the state and absurdity of entire situation. And also through humor, and that's what's amazing what Michael is. He knows full gravity of tragedy. He knows a full suffering. He's not just like people here in America and the both of it making fun of Kim Jong-un's haircut. They don't care what people go through. Michael cares.

He's a genius.

It's a joke. A lot of people think it's a joke. They just think like, this is too, too absurd. They just laugh. Like, can you imagine your laugh at Holocaust? This is that ridiculous.

I think it is a few things, right? Like, to North Korea as a nation. Number one or number two smartest IQ people in the world. despite their management.

Like South Korea. That's what they exactly did, right? The exact same Korea. One became more like 11th largest economy. One became the world's most like Polish nation, right? And this is a perfect example, like if I don't know if you read that book, why, nation, there's the system. It's not about a culture, it's not about people, it's not about IQ. What makes us to different is a system. South Korea, North Korea is a perfect example of that. One is exact same capability. We were homogeneous like country, same language, tradition, all of that. We gave them different systems. One is freedom, accuracy, one is dictatorship. and came up with the biggest different result. And I think North Korea reveals that to us, it's not because we are great that we are living in this prosperity. Free market, the idea is gave us to this. The system we built, our ancestors built, gave us this privilege. It's not us. Nothing is about us being special here, right? The system that we have is quite special. And North Korea proves that to us. It doesn't matter even if you're smart. It doesn't all irrelevant. And I think that's why people just keep denying it. They want to feel special. Like, because I'm awesome. I got all of this. Like, no, it's not you. You got this. And when people say, like, I hate capitalism. I'm like, without capitalism, how do you come up with this thing? Literally. How did you come up with this?

It is the most important thing in having life, choosing the right system.

Last thing I want them to feel is guilty. It doesn't do anything, right? So I hate when people talk about all white characters, like that doesn't make even any sense, right? I think the fact that they want me to freedom is a blessing for all of us. It's not like I want them to do something because they are guilty. I want them to do something because they are grateful. It is true like we are sitting at the fact why I have children with suffering, having kids you don't sleep, costly, like so much work, like any like logical rational mind, you should never want children, right?

I say it's better as a woman, right? You don't want to do that to yourself. But think about, like, we are sitting here today to us in this amazing technology this country. Because somebody in 7, 100,000 years ago, they're hunting berries and surviving cold every suffering they can imagine. They fall for us. That's what we ended up here. So life is ultimately bigger than us. I think that's what I want them. I is not like I want them to do the right thing and be the best person themselves. It's like I want them to feel grateful and be sure be grateful for the freedom and take full advantage of that.

And for your life literally. Like like you have my father working dying is a lot easier than living. That takes like a few minutes, right, maximum, and leaving takes forever. So when I was facing this unbelievable challenge, I thought, okay, this most rational thing I can do is killing myself right now. But the hardest thing I can choose to live, and my father did that, even in the concentration camp, even no matter why he said, life is a gift. You need to fight for it. And I think, That's what's missing here. That we don't think life has a gift. It's a gift. Like how many people had a fight for me to be here today? Think about the sacrifice they made for many, many generations. I don't even know what they went through. I can't even battle what they went through.

Yeah, and that is my responsibility now. So it doesn't make them, therefore fire was not meaningless, right? It meant something, because now I'm carrying on that fight.

I do because I was informed actually when I was 21 that I was on the killing list of Kim Jong Un in by South Korean intelligence. And then I had to leave with that, right? But now I actually feel more because I don't know if you follow Jamal Kashu history. The Saudi journalist got chopped off in Turkey in this way. His reason why he got killed was he became very prominent on Twitter. He had a huge voice and thought it's followed him. Now I became very first North Korean to have this many social media following. And recently North Korea started investigating investigation team too and analyzed whatever I do. Even though it's the first time for them, so they don't even know what to say this point. Like they're like, this is so new. What do we do? We do Kim Jongnam. Kim Jongnam, the half-brother of Kim Jongnam got cared in Malaysia. That is another tragedy that I fear so sorry for the US government is that Kim Jongnam was giving information to the CIA for the past 10 years. That trip, when he got killed in Malaysia Airport, he was meeting up with the CIA for two days on the Northern Ireland. Say I could have protected them. They didn't. They let him die.

North Korean Kim Jong-un. Do you know the Malaysian, the U.S., the U.S., the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, They chopped them into pieces. In that most inhuman death, what was the consequences for the Saudis? Nothing. The word is, we think, we live in justice. Now there's no justice. There is no accountability for killing any decent, no matter how big their names are.

No, it does opposite. because Kim Jong-un is really nice. I don't know if you went through it. They did everything they could to characterize or assassinate me. Saying, I'm a liar. I'm a serious spy. I get paid. And then they reached out to Penguin saying, we're gonna blow up. You cannot write this book. And they did with the Sony, they had the Sony studio for making that stupid movie interview, right? And then time green did their investigation. They met every survivor that I went through in the desert. They got the voice recording of them because they don't want them to change their mind later, right? People remember differently. So they got the voice recording, it's like the penguin recording got the old audience. And now we are ready for the lawsuit. We are going to publish this book because we checked the verified every single thing that was going in the book. And North Korea can do anything anymore.

It was like everybody in your life. Like everybody think of your life. And now everybody like you said this nature of internet is that as long as something is written internet, they think that's a fact. And it's to be the person can start a blog and write about you. But they think because it's written on internet, it's a legit.

We can't stand it. Yeah. Yeah. We any change maker in the sword, who was in the country version, right? Martin to continue. Like Nelson Mandela. He was called as a terrorist. Right. So I just didn't know. I.

You would have continued thinking for ever.

He was 1.6 millions to their followers. No? Because Saudis spoke to Amazon to prime studio, Netflix. There were people who made the documentary about it, but thought everybody can not get that deal. So there was a huge censorship on that. And people, of course, like, I mean, they can talk about it one day, some distance from Saudis that cared. Yeah, horrible.

So they move on the next Q-pop era, the next Q-cat. Like, that's what the nature of this new generation does. They desensitized. It doesn't affect them, they keep following the instant pleasure, instant high. That's what Instagram does to you. It changed your brain, like that's what I was really supposed to show. We became shallow and shallow, and our brain changed permanently. So this generation, we can get them angry for like 10 minutes, crash days for one day. But then as quick as that was, it goes down like instantly. And I think that's the

But they don't, they don't want to be involved. They didn't even protect Kim Jong-un, who was giving information 10 years, he was taking his life. That's what it's so... I mean, looking for Sia is not bad. I don't. I hope that means the thing is, he was giving information to bring down the vision. That is valuable. That is something novel about him. But then you don't go extra mile to that. That's when I lost my faith in the U.S. system as well. Like this country just cares about saving face. What is most meaningful cost they pay for anything. And like I would have a South Korea consonent every single day intelligence calling me. You know, the North Korean agent going this place where are you going? The U.S. doesn't come to U.S. nobody. But as a man, people said, I wish they called me. I wish they called me. I really truly do. Nobody. Nobody does here. I'm sure they know what's going on. But the South Korean agent is more like, oh my gosh, we don't want you to get curious. South Korean citizen, right? Yeah. And now I'm trying to become a citizen. So it's, in a way, it's, I don't know what's worse.

I was afraid. For the several, three, four years, I was afraid. And it was, but I had a came terms with it. Like in my enemy, it's not out of some crazy psychopath. It's a state with a nuclear power to attack the most powerful country. If Kim Jong-un decides if I die, I'm gonna die. It's not up to me, right? So in a way, it's a liberating that you, it's like if you are like afraid of some maps or some like gangsters on the street. It's almost like you have power over a little bit. You gotta be like thinking that's my fault. I went that way, right? But when you come to Kim Jong-un, I know like my enemies so much bigger than me. it's in a ways of liberation and also it also it also I just I leave a lot so I have seen a lot I've seen everything I don't have that much you grab left here like okay I'm going to soon you know it's like okay maybe it's time like that is a part of life so in some sense you're willing to accept death to keep fighting for freedom in your in at least in part place you call home yeah

I hope so. I hope I bring my son. And time, this is like where your ancestors from, too.

What, that'll be in paradise, right? That's, but I'm a rational optimist. I'm not like just optimist because I have to be. I think as long as there are people who have changed the word, right? Like, who believed in something and worked for it? And like, I don't know like this though. Like, Alice Shirou is like a few people holding entire this word, right? I really believe in that. I think, as long as that continues, that can happen in my country. As long as people like you someday, when they decide to do something when they're not Korean working for, using your brain power to solve this puzzle, how fast they would that be. That's why I continue to speak. Continue to recruit.

I mean, he goes to enter journey, right? He goes in the state, like, I'm so enlightened that I cannot deal with the people with their love and cry about it, right? They're like, that's so, like, primitive. Once he has his own son, He actually being attached. He actually cares. He actually really does hold things. Right? That's the thing that he used to think not. Once he's done, comes finding he looks in life differently. I think that's the thing I did have a kind of journey where all nothing matters, right? So bitter. So, so like, so cynical. And after I met so many incredible people I was talking about that person who told me he was gay. He told me, I love you. And I was like, why do you love me? In the past, people when they wanted me was because they wanted me. Everybody wanted something from me. That's why they wanted me. And I never understood. You can love somebody unconditionally. And this gay guy, the last one was supposed to sleep with me, right? And he loves me. And I think I had a blessing after my journey meeting people who loved me unconditionally because I was just being a human. And I think that's what it is now for me that like the him. I live for love now. I live for love. Any kinds of love. Love for knowledge. I like I live with so many books because I love books, right? I love what I do. I love my people. I love humanity. You know, even it's sometimes all noise me.

Well, I think at this point I stop question what I'm here, right? Like it doesn't matter if someone put the atom there or the big bang. I'm here, that's truth, right? I'm going to accept that fully. So what instead of me keep asking the impossible question what I'm here, I'm going to let you do that. Because I want to do that, right? You want to go out in the space and look for the evidence. I'm conducting.

I think I'm here for the process of pushing something bigger than me, process of doing something. It's not like you're more, it's not about just seeing everything. It just makes me happy that I fight for something bigger. Like that me, right? It's how boring it's like every day you get up. Like, oh my god, I'm gonna bite myself this. I'm gonna get this from myself. It's so boring, isn't it? So in a way, I think that's what it is. I'm grateful that I'm in a state. I don't have to fly from myself anymore. But more than people have to do that. And that's sometimes more than enough they have to do. And I so look, then they are doing fighting, saving themselves every day. But now I'm not there. I'm very blessed. That's why I'm very grateful.

So, that's the thing. I was reading this book for the by-randomness, right? Yeah. I was like, they were here like, oh my god, you're so courageous, you're amazing. I was like, no, I'm horrible. I know my stuff. You don't want to be mad at me. It's random when I end up here. Like, why did I pick up English so quickly? Why did I love books, right? I don't know why. It's random.

Yeah, it's just random. I think I don't know how the history will remember me. I think only thing I have to at this point make sure is that the people after I consulting a lot of security teams, like Nano's career became one of the smarter. Like you said, they make more disguise as a suicide. And I call accident. So when I die, they don't even know I got cared. Yeah. I think that's a higher chance. I think that's a thing like, people are suffering. Take it or not, it's your choice. And at least, it's my responsibility for them to know what's going on. I think if you did not know and did not do anything, you are not even guilty of a thing. But once you know, then you are not doing it. Then you son is like, not right. So that's what I'm doing. Like, I want people to know. And then what they want to do is not my problem afterwards, right? So my role is very small and there it goes. And I just hope that more humanized North Koreans for the first time because we have been so dehumanized, right? Like we are like looking like robots. If you look at us marching and cry like when the older dies, almost seems like we don't even have the same emotions. People cannot connect us in the same level. And I think that's something that's something media have done to us.

I'm sorry.