Transcript for #361 – Aaron Smith-Levin: Scientology

Scientology is a belief system, created by Al-Rainhubberd, that does fundamentally believe that we are all immortal spiritual beings, called Thaitons, that we have native Godlike potential. that there is nothing more powerful in the universe than a Thaiton. Like so, God like is quite literal here. And that through various decisions, Thaitons have made. They have fallen away from their native God-like power to fall down to a state where most Thaitons aren't even aware that they are Thaitons aren't even aware that they ever have lived before or have these powers. And that things are now in a state where they're trapped in bodies, trapped here on Earth, trapped in this prison of a physical universe, trapped on this prison of a planet. And that only Scientology can restore a thing to its native state.

There's one primary thing in animating each body. Later in Scientology, you learn there's actually like tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of like sick. unconscious half dead face and stuck to you that are now that an additional cause of problems for you sure, but fundamentally at the lower levels, the non confidential levels there's just one thing per body.

That would be correct. So what can make it challenging to adequately and completely describe Scientology in the beginning is what Scientologists believe actually changes as they progress further into or further up in Scientology. So the explanation is the I've given it is pretty consistent with what you would get at the lowest levels, right? You're a theta and I'm a theta in everyone's a theta. And we have a reactive mind. I'll run Hubbard would say the reactive mind is a collection of these recordings, mental recordings of any moments of pain and unconsciousness you've ever had in your life. It's like the subconscious mind. Uh, it's always recording in moments of pain and unconsciousness and that these are called, uh, these recordings are called El Run Hubbard called them end grams. Now, when El Run Hubbard first wrote dionetics in 1950, this was before Scientology came along a couple years later, right? So in 1950 when you wrote dionetics, it wasn't a spiritual endeavor. It was supposed to be a mental health, a science of mental health. So As of that time, the earliest end-gram you could have was the incident of birth being born, was an end-gram. And technically in dionetics, you said you could have prenatal end-grams, like when you're still in the womb. But there was no concept of past lives as of 1950 version of dionetics, right? And so the idea there was that the reactive mind is essentially a stimulus response mechanism created through evolution millions of years ago to protect the individual from things that would harm them. In other words, things that would bring about pain and unconsciousness. So you have these recordings of things that hurt you, create a pain and unconsciousness. And in present time, these things will react upon you in a way to cause you to avoid similar things, reacting upon you in a subconscious unconscious way.

Yes, and the idea is we've now as human beings of all to a state where it no longer serves us beneficially and only serves us negatively. This was Hubbard's theory. And he said, so you can get rid of these end grams by, you know, basically recalling them and going over them again and again using dionetics, auditing therapy. And if you get back to the moment of birth and erase the earliest end gram, all the other subsequent end grams on the chain would vanish. Oh, nice. So there's a chain earlier similar, earlier similar, earlier similar, earlier similar. Okay. So that gives you a pretty good understanding of how L Run Hubbard thought of the mind because that carries on has applicability later on in Scientology.

It's probably what Herbert took it from. In the early days of the genetics before he decided psychiatry was evil. He actually credited Sigmund Freud with some of the shoulders he was standing on in writing dynamics.

As I've just described, that is the fundamental. That is pretty much the nuts and bolts of dieinetics. Was it applied? Was it applied often? Oh, yeah, that's what dieinetics in the early days was all about, was just auditing. Auditing is the process of the one-on-one counseling, recall a moment of pain and unconsciousness, run through the angriam over and over and over again, find something earlier similar. That is dieinetics auditing. One of the main things that changed with science,ology is that birth or prenatal angriams were no longer the earliest angriams on the chain. The idea is you have to get the earliest algorithm on the chain for the later ones to blow, which is a race. And so, but all of a sudden now, with the addition of an immortal spiritual being into the equation, will now the earliest incident could be trillions of years ago in other galaxies and universes.

No. The model is, you have the physical universe, And then above that, you have the theta universe. So we used the word theta in earlier. So in Scientology, I'll use word theta. I don't know, theta is just basically theta in power, theta is collectively. So Hubbard would say you have the theta universe, which is senior to the physical universe and creates the physical universe. And remember, I said, I said, native God like potentials. So we're not talking about the God who created the earth. We're just like scienceologists don't believe in a God, but we'll get into that later. We're talking about creating universes, like just thinking like matrix, like just when I say creating universe essentially just creating different things simulations.

Well, I grew up in a cult, so I'm not familiar with the works of Plato.

I totally agree. In fact, it's one of the The thrusts, I have on my channel, is wanting to talk about Scientology in a way that would actually resonate with current Scientologists, not just resonate with former Scientologists. I want people who are still in to be able to hear how I talk about it and go, wow, he's being really fair and really accurate.

And I'll just say it's interesting to note you would never get a representative of the Church of Scientology to sit down and have a conversation with you and even be as fair and accurate about Scientology as I'm going to be, which is, which is not where they do you honestly deeply believe that's the case.

They paint themselves into a corner of not being able to send a representative out into the world to speak honestly about it because you're literally not allowed to. So when faced, you know, if you're just sitting down with an entertainment journalist of representative might be able to fudge their way through an interview, but sitting down for a long form format interview with someone who is going to ask them about Xenu and the body fatens and Lea Ramini and Lisa McPherson. That's a no-go zone. So, so I'm representing why it will never happen, but shit, I would tune in for that interview.

I would love to be wrong.

Yeah. Anyone over there, if they've done their homework knows, you're going to be as fair as anyone in the world's going to be. And yet, They're simply things they're not allowed to talk about, and they're not even allowed to say I'm not allowed to talk about it.

It's not even matter of training. It's that there's an entire the entire upper half of Scientology's bridge is simply confidential. I mean, and I never even did those levels when I was in Scientology. I didn't learn what Scientology's actually believed on those upper levels until after I get out of Scientology, now I was freaking born and raised in it.

Yeah, I was four years old when my mom got in.

So I was four years old when my mom got introduced to Scientology. And she got in really fast, really quick. So I was 12 years old when I was taken out of school and started officially full-time working for Scientology. Okay, so in various capacities, I worked with them from the ages of 12 to the age of 26. Okay, so, and then I was 34 when I officially parted ways with Scientology. which was really more of them officially parting ways with me, but we can get in all that later. That's just kind of how Scientology doesn't.

So now I run growing up in Scientology, the YouTube channel, but what I primarily do is I help run an organization that helps people who are escaping from Scientology. I'm the vice president of the aftermath foundation. And we created the foundation after the television show, The Auremmany Scientology in the aftermath. and there was such an outpouring of support from non-scientologists all over the world. What can we do to help people leave scienceology that we decided to create a foundation and it's been incredibly successful. We've helped people escape from all regions and echelons of scienceology. We've accomplished what we've accomplished is far beyond what we actually envisioned would be possible. It's been a huge success.

Yeah, so that when I say God like, I really just mean, you know, Thanos, like unlimited. Scientologists don't believe in a God. So when I say God like, I just mean the most powerful entity, the creator, the prime mover, unmoved, except we are all that. You know, a thin and indefinite in Scientology, a thin has no position in space or time. A thin does not actually exist in the physical universe. It might choose to locate itself in the physical universe, right? And then forget that it made that decision and then sort of get caught and trapped in the physical universe. But that once the thing is restored to its native powers, everything you see here in the physical universe is just a thing playing a game. Like, later, we are in a simulation right now of something. So, like, physics doesn't have to make sense when we're talking about it this way. Like, technically, you're a thing in, I'm a thing, and we're here, but this could also all just be another thing in this game. So, things all the way down. Yeah, it's just things everywhere things, it all comes down to the thing.

Correct. Scientology has this concept of the dynamic cell run hybrid breaks life into a different dynamics and the dynamic meaning a thrust towards survival. So he would say, you know, the first dynamic is you yourself, second dynamic is your family, third dynamic is any other group that you're a part of other than your family. Fourth dynamic is all human kind. The fifth dynamic is plant animal life, all non-human life. Sixth dynamic is the physical world, seventh dynamic is sort of like spirituality, collectively, faytons, as a statence. And the eighth dynamic, Elrun Herbert says, Scientology doesn't deal with the eighth dynamic, but we recognize that people have this idea of a supreme being. And so Scientology says you can call the eighth dynamic the supreme being dynamic, but we call it infinity. just the all-ness of everything without having to define it. And then they sort of do a little dance and they're like, science, holiday, the purpose of Scientology is to get you to the point where you have your own understandings or realizations about the nature of the eighth dynamic. We don't tell you what you have to believe about that. And technically speaking, that is true. Technically speaking, that is true. There's no point in Scientology where they state you down and say you're not required to revoke your belief in a Supreme being. It's just that everything in Scientology is inconsistent with a belief in the Supreme being. You can still find Scientologists who through cognitive dissonance will tell you they believe in a Supreme being, mostly they're lying to you.

Because they didn't, because they didn't have created everything, not God.

Sure. The only way you could reconcile a supreme being is if you say a single supreme being created. All theta. Yeah. Like the spiritual big bang. But that's not what most people think when they talk about God. They're talking about a creator of the physical universe.

Right. I mean, even as I've described Scientology so far, none of what I've said is something I even subject to ridicule. This is pretty common sense stuff actually. I mean, if you believe in spirituality or spirits of all, there's nothing I've described so far that's crazy. Yeah. You know, believing in past lives isn't particularly unique or special. Right. The fact that Scientology does this little dance of pretending to believe in a God. I mean, it's even like a PR line. Scientology, representatives will tell you you can be a Christian and be a Scientologist. Let me tell you what. Christians don't believe in past lives and lives on other galaxies and planets and universes. They, but in Scientology knows that. Scientology knows you can't be a Christian and be a Scientologist, but they will say that. It's just an example of sort of the fundamental baked in dishonesty.

While going through that process with the IRS for the second time, by the way, Scientology actually had text exemption in the early days and the IRS pulled it and then they got it back in 1993. While going through that process again, the IRS actually took issue with the fact that Scientology was claiming you could be a Scientologist. and a member of another religion. The IRS actually said, pump the brakes there. If you're going to say that, we're going to say you're not a religion. And they actually put in writing to the IRS, no, no, no, no, that's not what we meant. That's not what we meant. We meant in the beginning you can be both, but eventually you just have to be a Scientologist.

So it would be all of that because survival is the dominant force across all the dynamics. That, I mean, Al-Ruan Hubbard, it was either dynamics or science of survival. He says he discovered the principle upon which all life exists. And that is, all life no matter what it is trying to do. Are you ready, Lex? It's trying to survive.

But here's the thing, like, here's the thing. It is consistent with prior efforts or studies. It's just that L. Ron Hubbard said this was a watershed breakthrough that it was being discovered for the first time. That's kind of what I'm mocking, really.

It didn't claim to be the first person to ever say it.

That's the only thing I'm really mocking is said, this discovery that life is trying to survive is greater than the discovery of fire. Okay. I mean, it gets a little silly. But that's fine. We can agree that the fact that life is trying to survive has meaning and is meaningful and is valuable. And it's true. I mean, life is trying to survive.

physical reality then it becomes a little too woo-go. And the way I'll run hybrid and Scientology defines survival is very much intertwined with how they define ethics. Ethics, anything, you know, to be ethical is pro survival, to be unethical is counter survival. But we were talking about just the concept of the dynamics, like what does survival refer to. And it actually does refer to all of them, but just keep in mind when it comes to the seventh dynamic, Thetons collectively, um, involved in here's the idea that a thing cannot die. There's no such thing as killing a thing. A thing can only can only survive. Anyway, this concept of the dynamics is one of the most fundamental and important concepts in Scientology. But because I mentioned that it also gets tied up with ethics. And this probably speaks to what you're just talking about is you can have the ideas and the concepts and you can have how do they go wrong. Because they hold that Scientology, applying Scientology, getting people into Scientology is the key to basically saving every spiritual being in existence. When you're analyzing what is ethical, it becomes whatever's good for Scientology becomes by definition ethical because anything that's good for Scientology, which is a third dynamic, is inherently good for all the dynamics. So that's where you get the end's justifying the means to do anything possible and use any means necessary to forward the aims of Scientology.

In some respects, Scientology created a near-perfect communist experiment in its seorganization. What is it from everyone according to their ability to each according to their needs or something like that? Scientology's seorganization is damn near-perfect communist experiment. Coming from someone who doesn't necessarily know the perfect communist experiment really is because I'm not grew up in a cult like you can't use this. It's a funny tag line of using my videos. I like it. But like it is interesting that an organization that is so hypercapitalist and so money hungry and is known to be very wealthy at its core is run by these group of SEARG members that live a communist lifestyle.

This organization is the most dedicated version, the most dedicated brand of Scientologists. So there's three like echelons of Scientologists. There's public who just live normal lives in the real world and they pay to do Scientology courses and auditing. Then there's staff members who also live in the real world. But work on two and a half year contracts or five year contracts at their local Scientology organization, and then once they finished their contract there, their debt is paid or whatever. And then there's the C.org members. These are the guys who signed the billion year contracts. They don't have lives in the outside world. They don't own property. They live in Scientology provided housing. They eat Scientology run cafeterias.

It's symbolic, but yes. Like, no, it's not a legally enforceable contract. They haven't succeeded in forcing it in any subsequent lifetimes yet.

Yeah. Those are the billion year, guys. You hear a lot about the billion in your contract, the billion in your contract. That's the seawork. And all of science,ology, management, international management, middle management, continental management, and even some lower level service orgs are one composed 100% of seawork members. You're not allowed to marry or date someone who's not in the sea or you also not allowed to have children.

Sea or members are not allowed to have children unless they leave the sea or give you. You're expected to have an abortion and stay in the sea or because it's the greatest good for Scientology. If you accidentally get pregnant.

What about sexual relations only once married? But that's why people get married after like three days. Hey, you look. You look alright. Let's get married. Are you allowed to have divorce? Yeah. You get divorce a lot in the seawork. I've known people get married in three times by like by the age of 25. Oh, wow. Because in the seawork getting married is practically like dating. Right. Also unless you're married, you're living in dorms with a bunch of other people. So in order to get your own room, you also have to get married. So there's many benefits.

Is that C-org? Every one in the C-org makes $50 a week. Everybody, except David and his cabbage, but, and some, some posts might have a cash bonus incentive structure, but fundamentally their pay is $50 a week. So, so even the head of a big Scientology organization is getting $50 a week.

They don't have to give you anything at all. It's just, you mean, like, what's the idea behind not paying? Yeah, basically not paying. Everything you need's already being provided for you. You're not here for the money. You're working all the time anyway. It's not like you don't have days off. I mean, you're, you're, you're working all the time. There's, there's not, there's, there's no, there's a concept of the weekends. There's no, oh, thank God, it's Friday. Friday is just another day.

It's a very similar to just any other business as far as you can have your human resources, you can have your sales, you can have your accounting, your operations, your quality control is just that in Scientology, your operations is delivering courses and auditing. So your operations and your quality control are most of the activity occurs as far as delivering Scientology. And then you've got your, you call it business development, but that's just bringing in new members, right? So the function of a Scientology organization is very comparable to a normal business in the normal world.

So auditing is, so we described earlier, dionetics auditing. Scientology auditing is very similar to that.

All Scientology auditing is going to look like that. It's one-on-one talk therapy. You're a room by yourself, no distraction, no noise. One-on-one? Yeah. It's like this. Yeah. But, and in Scientology, they have it, what's called an emitter? Right. Almost all auditing employs the use of an emitter. What's an emitter? So an emitter is a device that just measures the resistance to a small electrical flow, except Scientologists believe that this emitter can be used to simply direct the progress of an auditing session. To determine whether the auditing has reached a good satisfactory conclusion. All auditing sessions have to end on a satisfactory conclusion. Like, that's the job of the auditor. You don't just, it's not like, sorry, the session sucks. See you next week. It's not like that. Every auditing session has to end on a positive note. And if it doesn't, there's corrections to be made. So the emitter, what does it look like visually? Like, oh, you can pull it up. Pull up Mark 8, emitter, Mark 8.

Okay, so let's say that the meters in front of me and you're the one holding the cans.

No, literally, in the beginning of an auditing session when you're calibrating the sensitivity of the emitter you do it. I can squeeze, so I squeeze the cans, please. Okay, so I'm just like squeezing. Yeah, and I'm just changing the sensitivity because when you squeeze the cans, I want to get about a one third of a dial drop on the needle. The idea is you don't want, if the needle's too sensitive, then every time you shift around in your chair, the needle's going to bounce all over the place. So you're trying to set the sensitivity of this thing. And that's all the knob there on the bottom to the left. That's the sensitivity knob. And that determines just how much how sensitive the needle is going to be. And the bigger dial is called the tone arm. And that is changing. I want to say voltage or current, but I'm not intended. I'm going to get one of those words is wrong, right?

Yeah. So here's even how just how a Scientology auditor believes it works. You're holding the cans. There's a tiny little battery in that emitter that's sending and you're completing the circuit when you pick up the cans, right? So you got a little thing going there. And that needle will respond to your physical movement. But that's not what we want. We want you to set the hell still so that we can read this thing when I'm asking you questions.

As still as you can, comfortable, right? And I'm going to go, is there something you're withholding from me? And what I'm looking for is right when I say at the end of May, I'm looking for the needle to dip to the right.

That's what it's used for, except it's an enforced conversation. So I'll give you a really good example of this. So You're holding the cans. I say, is there anything you're withholding from me? And I get an instant read. And I go, is there anything you're withholding from me? Here you go.

No, you don't see the needle. I go, well, what did you think of when I asked you the question? Now, if you've already had a lot of auditing, you know how this goes. It means I got an instant read and we're not going to move on until this question gets resolved. Okay, so you're going to go, I don't know how it's thinking of. And then I'm going to be like, you know, take a look and I'll help you out here. I'll try to steer you. Okay. So I'm looking to get roughly the same read while you're thinking about whatever. And what was that? What was that right there?

I just want an answer to the question. Okay.

Yeah. And you can give me any answer you want. There's no way for me to know if you're giving me the right answer. But I want you to give me something. Yeah. If you say you can't give me anything, I'm going to keep using the email until you give me something. Yeah. Okay. So let's say you give me something. I'm going to get all the details about that and until like time-place, form, and event, I want to know everything that happened. I want to know all the details. I'm probably not writing all this down. So I'm taking notes of everything you're telling me that it's a bad thing that you did that you haven't told me about. Okay, so I'm keeping notes. When you represent to me that you've told me everything there is to tell. I'm looking for the needle to give like a smooth back and forth motion like this. And Scientology calls out a floating needle. That means in Scientology land, we're done with that. So now I might go back to check the question. Okay, good. I'll check the question again. Is there anything you're withholding from me? Ooh, if I get another read, we've got to go through the process again. Okay. If you tell me, I've told you everything and I don't get a floating needle. I've got to go. Okay. Is there an earlier similar thing? Have you basically done an earlier similar thing? Is there an earlier similar time you haven't told someone something or is there an earlier similar thing that you did the thing that you just told me? We're going to keep going earlier similar, earlier similar, earlier similar until I get a floating needle. And that's where I'm explaining it this way you can see how no matter what the specific auditing session happens to be about, there's still the potential in any auditing session that you're going into past lives. Just because you have to go earlier similar until you get a floating needle. Okay. Now, here's how Scientologists think the emitter actually works, meaning why does the emitter work? So we talked before about these mental pictures, right? These recordings. Okay. Well, we spoke about end grams, just recordings of pain and unconsciousness. Well, Scientology would hold the bad recordings, aren't the only recordings that you have. Those are just recordings in your reactive mind. You also have an analytical mind, which is just your conscious memory. conscious recording of everything from present time to the last 76 trillion years. And Hubbard would say that these memories are actually a perfectly detailed recording. And these says like 56 perceptions or something. And that it's perfect. And you can access that information. You just have trouble doing so. Okay. So he says that these recordings, these mental pictures have actual electrical charge and mass. Now, you asked before is there any actual physics in this? I don't know. Where are you supposed to store the pictures of your last 76 trillion years that have charging mass? I don't see it. But Howard says it's there. Okay. So he says that these things have mass. And when you recall them or put attention on them, you create an electrical flow. which maybe through magnetic fields or whatever, impinges upon the electrical flow of the emitter, and it shows up as a read on the needle. That's how scientists believe that's why the needle reads. Now, synics would say the needle only reads on palm sweat and movement. Well, I know that's not true, right? I can't tell you everything the needle does read on, but I can tell you it's not just moving your hands and sweaty hands. It does correlate to thoughts probably.

I can't explain to you how you get a floating needle, but it sure as hell isn't hands wet, and it sure as hell isn't squeezing the cans. Right.

Well, when you're training on how to use the emitter, there are drills where you practice generating with your mind various needle reactions. So, you know, there is a drill where you sit there and you consciously try to create a floating needle by from crawling happy thoughts. Go to your happy place. And at the end of every auditing session, you actually have to go to a third party, sit down in front of an emitter and verify that your needle's floating. Every single auditing session not only has to end on a floating needle, but then you have to go to someone else and have the floating needle verified. Any Scientologist who's a seasoned recipient of auditing knows how to make their needle float at the examiner.

Sure. A lot of people find auditing very helpful. I mean, I've heard some describe it as quite thoroughly addictive. Me personally, I never enjoy getting auditing. That's probably more a function of having been raised in it. It was never something I wanted to do. Something was forced on me as a child. And also, I was never, I don't like talking about private secret stuff. You kind of have to want to be an open book. Sure. To, to honestly and thoroughly participate in an auditing session?

There's no expectation of privacy, but there's no expectation that your stuff's going to be leaked for blackmail either. I mean, you kind of, you trust the people in the organization.

If you're a Scientologist, and you're participating in an auditing session, you know that any one in the organization has the ability to know the stuff that you saw. It's not like, oh my god, I'm only telling my auditer, because I think no one's ever going to know. You know that people know, but you also trust the organization.

For people who are seasoned, like they actually like going past life. Yeah. I hated it. I would make sure I was really good at making my needle float. I didn't want to have some auditor because I never believed in the best life memories. So I don't want to be in that impossible, you know, reaching in passing and auditing session, while I was being asked for something I couldn't provide. Because I know this auditing session has to end on a good point. But Scientologists enjoy for the most part going, they call it whole track, whole track is past life. going whole track. Your time track, they've got the time track, is your whole memory, but whole track refers to anything past life. Okay. So going whole track or deep whole track with high reality, meaning it's not like, oh, I have a fuzzy memory and I'm not sure if it's real, like your real season, Scientologists are like, oh, yeah, I was on this planet and this time circling this before I was eating for breakfast.

Yeah. And it goes both flows there, not just things that have happened to you, but things that you've done. So, you know, you could be being asked for it. You know, you'd be going back to, I wiped out a civilization. I, I committed genocide. I don't know. This rice on this planet. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah.

Wait, I'm actually a horrible person. So imagine though, if you had not only are you looking at, you know, someone's being self-critical, trying to identify destructive patterns of behavior in your present life, but what if you really internalize the fact that I haven't only been this way for 40 years, I've been this way for 40 trillion years. Yeah. But science,ology would argue, that as a thing, you're inherently good, all things are basically good. So the goal of the auditing procedure there would be essentially to figure out, find the moment, find what it was that caused you to make that shift as a being, to dramatize evil intentions and stuff like that. So even if you're going whole track, looking at all the horrible things you've done. The goal is to find like, well, what happened just prior to that? What was like the prior confusion? And what did you misunderstand just before that? And whatnot. So the goal is basically, so scientists have to have a lot of auditing are also convinced that they have fixed the reason for any non-optimum. conduct.

Scientology would say that Scientology is not about beliefs. It's about application of the techniques of Scientology auditing to improve someone's spiritual awareness and ability. So the belief level of Scientology is pretty much the stuff we've already discussed.

So the effectiveness of the auditing process, this is one of the things Hubbard says, is that standard tech, standard Scientology, they call it the tech, the technology of how to deliver auditing, standard tech, worse 100% of the time, when applied 100% correctly. Well, that's kind of unfalseifiable, right? Yeah. Because anytime it doesn't work, it wasn't applied correctly. Exactly. That's a nice little escape hatch to pull on, having a crisis of faith. It didn't work. then obviously it wasn't applied correctly. That's where quality control comes in. Their job is to nitpick and you can always find one thing that wasn't done correctly.

That's right. I would probably argue that auditors are not in a position of having many crisis faith because actually they're usually seeing people for the most part. improve in some ways, through the process of auditing. Now, auditing can create like a state somewhat of a euphoric state. You feel great. You're just blown out of your head, you know, you feel on top of the world. I've had that in some of my auditing.

No, as a person receiving auditing. And so my point is as an auditor doing a lot of auditing, you're going to have someone in front of you called the pre-clear as the person in front of you who's getting the auditing called the PC or the pre-clear. They see over and over and over again, these pieces having these sort of euphoric states and floating needles. And I feel great and fantastic. No, thanks. You said in my life and I've always said, if people didn't find Scientology helpful, nobody would ever stay in Scientology. And so, auditors are pretty much the ones doing the heavy lifting of what it even means to be a Scientologist. Those guys aren't the ones that you end up having crisis of faith. I mean, doing Scientology, auditing, it doesn't require that you believe, just have faith that you believe something. You just have to go through these motions and Scientologists, one of the reasons Scientologists think this is all scientific, because it's like, I don't care if you believe why this works. I care how you feel at the end of an auditing session.

I would argue that what you've just described, it could be an identical description of what it feels like and what it means to go up Scientology's Bridge to total freedom. you are reinforcing to yourself that everything's getting better and better and better and you'd be like, you don't spend time with your family anymore. You're broke even though you make a lot of money. You're always stressed. You're at the back and call of these people who seem to run your lives. How a Scientologist feels about their own life is very interesting to compare that to how that person's life looks to their non- Scientology family members. I get contacted by a lot of people who've never been in Scientology. But they're like, I got a family member who's really deep and I just can you help me understand something? Why is this person's life like this? Why is this person's life like this? So I don't want to say that Scientologists do not actually, I don't want to say, oh, it's all in their heads. They think they're being helped, but they're really not. That doesn't feel honest. But it's this thing where if Scientology was just getting auditing. When you wanted about the subjects you wanted and you could take it or leave it, that would be fine. It's the fact that it's part and parcel to this entire organization and this entire experience. that has, as a part of that experience, taking everything from you, demanding everything from you, controlling who you can speak with, controlling who you can have relationships with, who you have to erase from your life. This is where, and it's hard to place one pinpoint on, this is where a Scientology goes wrong. It's really hard to do that because the good parts of Scientology and the bad parts of Scientology are all just Scientology.

Well, Information control access to the internet access to any information critical of Scientology. Is it some internet access load? Public Scientologists has no restrictions to their access to the internet. They're just not allowed to read anything critical of Scientology.

They really push this thing that unless you've been in a Scientology organization yourself, or unless you've actually been a Scientologist, you couldn't possibly know the truth about Scientology. If you're only getting information from people who aren't members or former members, then you couldn't possibly be getting the correct information. Now, they don't realize the math there doesn't make sense. If you can find out the true information by becoming and being a Scientologist, then that means You can get the correct information from a former Scientologist because they traveled that path and they got the correct information. So they still create this, they try to create this unfalse file loop where unless you are personally doing it, you don't have correct information. And you go, what about people who did personally do it? Got the correct information. Left. and are now sharing that with others. We'll know those are lies. Okay, so just anything you don't like is a lie then. Yeah, pretty much. That's kind of how it works.

Well, these days, they pretty much, I think, thrown in the towel. But they have. The Scientology Middle Management was Editing Wikipedia so often for my P addresses that were traced back to the Scientology buildings that Wikipedia locked them out from any IP addresses associated with Scientology from being able to edit it. It's like the Scientology was so enfatuated with trying to control the information and in the early days of the internet they had a certain degree of success with that. It's just hopeless these days.

And I got to tell you, it's one of the reasons I do my YouTube channel. It's one of the reasons I decided to upload every day. I've uploaded every day for the last six months. I just wanted there to be a non-stop flow of information of any kind and any variety, as long as it's fair and balanced, intelligent, interesting, that Scientologist, who stumble upon the internet, will go, oh, look, someone's talking about my thing. Let's see what they got going on. And and I know this guy the fact that Scientology crushes so much information before before before like I have the only like big Scientology channel and that only got big in the last six months. Okay, so before that there were channels there was things, but it's almost like it took a lot of like People thought like it had took a lot of bravery and courage to like say something on the internet about Scientology and so people would pop up and there weren't very many voices and I was like, I want this to be prolific. I want, I want to be prolific. I want to have 30 or 40 other channels being prolific so that Scientology couldn't possibly successfully control the narrative about it. Have you been personally attacked? Erin Smithlevin.com is a website created by the Church of Scientology. Have you seen it?

Aaron's a abusive father and a horrible husband and the worst staff member we've ever had and I'll I openly talk about it because I think the fact that Scientology even does things like that is fucking hilarious and Anything they try to do to me. I'm the way I think about it is You know you're just giving me an opportunity to turn the mirror back on you and show everyone how horrible you are does it stick? No

They're so over the top and I'll tell you how the website even came into being. So I was on the first season of Lea Ramini Scientology in the aftermath. Every single person who participated in that show got a website. It's just that everyone else's website is like who is markheadly.com? Who is Mike Render.com? Well, I bought who is Aaron Smith 11.com, but I was stupid by Aaron. I didn't buy Aaron Smith 11.com. So I'm actually the only one who has a website in their name. Oh, nice. Yeah. And I'm like, Doc Call. We get a lawyer to get it back for him, but I'm like, why? I want everyone to see what a nasty, petty, disgusting organization that this is. And nobody believes anything Scientology says anyway. Does the general public know that it comes from Scientology? It says right on the bottom copyright, 2000, whatever, Church of Scientology International, like they didn't even try to hide it.

Oh, there's videos from former co-workers.

I got links to everyone else's website on the bottom. It's so funny.

You know how many? 2020 when you're in Scientology International, all rights reserved. Here's an example of just Scientologists complete lack of self-awareness. So me and Mike Render, we went have these on like a house flip project, right? You know, Mike Render. You know, Mike Render.

The reason we created that the Bobblehead is because on Mike Render's hate site, Scientology created a Jeff or a GIF, how do you set what's the right way to set? The correct way is GIF, GIF, GIF, GIF, GIF. Scientology created a GIF of Mike Render as a Bobblehead. It was an insult like, oh, all he does is sit next to Leah Remedy and go, yes, Leah, and so they made a GIF of him with a Bobblehead. So we were like, we're going to make Mike Render Bobbleheads and we're going to sell him on thespshop.com to raise money for the aftermath foundation. I love it. Yeah, and now that I go out and buy Yeah, go to the screenshot.com and get yourself a microphone or Bob had no look now that my profiles getting a little higher. This head was made to bobble like this Yeah, this smooth shiny head needs its own bobble head now does I can't believe it doesn't exist so but let me show you so here's what's happening here. We just hired some day laborers off of what like Craigslist or something yeah So what Scientology did was they had a private investigator, stake out the house flip project. They were clearly running license plates of anyone who visited the property, because otherwise, how would they find out the laborers' names, look, do background checks on them, to find out they had criminal records. And they published this as if it's gonna reflect negatively on me. Oh, we hired someone to do work who had a criminal record, who gives it shit. Do you know, one of the biggest problem people with records have is finding employment. There's nothing bad about hiring someone who's got a criminal record. It doesn't reflect negatively on me, but it shows you what they think about those people. It shows you what they think about people who are trying to put their lives back together and maybe actually work for a living. And it also shows that they're surveilling us. They don't realize that putting this up, they're publishing information that they could only have if they're surveilling me and Mike. And it doesn't occur to them, maybe we shouldn't put that up.

That's the other reason to be prolific on the internet, right? The reason Joe Rogan can't get canceled. is because anyone can watch thousands of hours of the authentic Joe Rogan. You can't miss representing, because he spent thousands of hours representing himself genuinely.

The current leader of Scientology. He was actually not selected by Al-Ranhubber to take over, but ended up you serving power and taking over.

Right. I think the quote sometime it gets attributed to David Miscavages. I'm power. Power is not given. It is assumed. Yeah. Something like that. The last six years of Albert's life, he was often as seclusion, essentially hiding from lawsuits. Now, by the time, Hubbard went off into seclusion, Miscavich had sort of already risen up through the ranks of the Sea Organization. Now, Miscavich was like a teenager, either like 11, 12, 13 or something like that. Miscavich was not born into Scientology, but he was a young boy when his father got into Scientology. So, Miscavich did start working as a Sea Org member. So, there's one organization that existed to essentially serve Hubbard directly. and to represent his interest, and that was called the Commodore, he was the Commodore of the Sea Organization, the Commodore's Messengers Organization, we're going to call it the CMO. Miscavage started working for the CMO pretty early on in his C-org career. By the way, as did Mike Render. He just became known as a doer, like a guy who'll get it done. No excuses, no stops, you know, get it done. So, he had made a name for himself in the CMO. around the time. By the time, we're off into seclusion. Now, when he went off into seclusion, he took two other CMO, or I'm going to call him messengers, right? Commodore's messengers. He took two other messengers with him, patting any broker. Now, it has been said by people, Mike, Mike Rinder has told me. He goes, the reason patting anyone off with our age isn't necessarily because he desperately wanted them to, but partly because we could afford to let them go. We didn't necessarily need them. Sure. Okay. And between the two of them, Annie was the one who was like a really compassionate person. intelligent person, caring person, was there a possible trajectory of this world where she was the one that took over? Yes. In fact, Pat and Annie Broker were the two people that were supposed to take over. Okay, but because Pat and Annie were with Hubbard in seclusion, basically had the complete run of the operation without any oversight from Hubbard. The only way any information would get from Scientology World to Hubbard is misgavage and Pat Broker would meet at a confidential location. And misgavage would give Broker any information he wanted to go to LRH. So if misgavage wanted to get rid of somebody, all he had to do was feed LRH false information that this person was doing had been caught doing something treasonous. And then he would get in response some order from L Run Hubbard to get rid of this person. So are there so many similarities between various communist regimes and fascist regimes?

all of Scientology's attorneys and accountants and lobbyists and whatever, they all know Dave. Dave's the one they deal with. So, you know, LRH passes away, patent any make this appearance. Nobody knows patent any. Everybody knows Dave. And so he ended up getting rid of patent any. This is a very short, perhaps slightly bastardized version of it, of miscavage basically. They had been, they had been ushering just suit cases of cash. to all run Hubbard during this time. And, you know, like, so you have misgabbage handing, but loads of cash to Pat Broker. Pat would do crazy things like hide the money in the walls of houses and dig pits and everything. So, a misgabbage basically threatened to turn Pat Broker over to the IRS for tax evasion. That's pet broker still alive. Is he a Scientologist or not? No. He basically went away and kept out and he shot. She died a handful of years ago. She stayed a loyal C. York member until the very end. But literally, like the misgavitch put her on menial tasks like Like, she had no authority whatsoever. She was just put on menial tasks. I mean, the washing dish has been not really groundskeeper. Just just stupid low level assistant paper push your stuff. She never, but she never operated with any actual authority. Even though she was supposed to be the one to take over her impact.

First of all, I believe that misgavage is a true believer in Scientology. I do believe that.

He definitely believes in that. I think he believes in Scientology but in a different way than all other Scientologists because he's aware of a lot more. Information, damaging information about El Run Hubbard and the true story of Scientology that most people. So his version of belief is different. I'll give you one example here. So Scientology's bridge to total freedom goes up to what they call OTA's operating theme level eight. Okay. Scientologists have often told that El Run Hubbard before he passed finished, completed, putting together OTA 910, 1112, 1314 and 15. It's just sitting in the vault, waiting to be released. This is part of the Scientology belief system, because remember, I said, going up Scientology's bridge or told a freedom is how you're supposed to get back to your native God-like state. While all the Scientologists in the world have already done OTA know that they haven't gotten there, but they still believe in Scientology because they're told there's more. But wait, there's more. Miscafich knows there is no more. So, miscafich knows the fundamental promise of being able to achieve full operating theta is a lie. He knows L Run Hubbard did and accomplished that. So therefore, no one else is going to accomplish it as well. If L Run Hubbard had accomplished it, misgavage knows, well, he didn't write it up. He didn't leave instructions for how anyone else would accomplish it. So no matter what, misgavage knows that the fundamental promise that what Scientology is saying, they will be able to deliver two mankind is a lie. Now it's going to sound like I'm contradicting myself, because it sounds like I'm saying, well, he knows it's bullshit. I think he believes that Elron Hubbard just failed to finish his work. and he's kind of hoping Al-Rainhubber is going to come back to finish the job. Because Al-Rainhubber did tell the people at international, the international management base, at least a core of them, that he was coming back. Now, we know that David Miscavich believed this because right around the 21-year mark, he was supposed to come back like 21 years after he died. Right around the 21-year mark, David Miscavich was getting busy putting some things in place that had to get done in case Al-Rainhubber came back. So we know he at least believed to that level.

We spoke early in the interview about achieving your native godlike state. That in Scientology is called native state. Okay, native state and full operating theta means the exact same thing. Okay, because at native state, you are a fully operating theta, you know, operating meaning, operating your full capacity. So OT means operating thing. So the upper confidential half of Scientology's bridge are called the OT levels, the operating thing in levels. and these, and remember, they're confidential. So most Scientologists have not done these levels. They don't know what's on them. It is on these levels that you learn about the Xenu and the Body Thaiton story. Can you describe Xenu please? We spoke earlier about how at the lower non-confidential levels of Scientology's bridge, Hubbard is saying that what's wrong with you is your reactive mind. Yes. Okay. Well, in Scientology, once you've gotten rid of your reactive mind, that is what's called the state of clear. OK, so after you finish state of clear, the next thing on the bridge is the OT levels. Well, if you've already gotten rid of your active mind, what the heck are you supposed to do now? Well, now Elrun Hubbard says, okay, first, what was wrong with you was just your reactive mind. But now the next thing you have to resolve, the next thing that's wrong with you, is you actually have tens of thousands of fatens stuck to your body, and they all have their own reactive minds. You have to audit the fatens.

You use the emitter, just like we spoke about except now you've got a divider that separates the can so they don't short-circuit and you hold both cans in one hand and you have the emitter in front of you so now you're auditing yourself. You're telepathically talking to the things that are stuck to you. You are thinking the commands instead of saying them out loud and you sort of do drills where you practice looking for emitter reads at the instant you have a thought. You're telepathically auditing spirits that Elburn Hubbard says are stuck to your body. Does this sound like a recipe for a mental breakdown?

and you combine that with the fact that Scientology is against any forms of mental health or health outside of Scientology and you have a recipe for disaster. Now, you might go, where did all these spirits come from that or stuck to your body? This is where Xenu comes into play. So Hubbard says that 75 million years ago, Xenu was basically a dictator at The Galactic Confederation is like 70 something or 80 something planets somewhere in the Milky Way and Xenu was like a dictator and overlord for either one of these planets or the whole system and they had a population problem. And Xenu was like, we need to get rid of like half the people. So we called them all in for tax audits. Albert didn't like the IRS, so of course the story has to do with tax audits. Okay, called them all in for tax audits, said psych bitches, froze them and gly call, loaded them up on space planes, flew them to earth. Remember the story has to be earth because the story is what's wrong with us. flew them to earth, dropped them in volcanoes, blew them up with hydrogen bombs. and then captured them with like spirit magnets I'm making upwards because okay. And these disembodied spirits of these people that got blown up have just been blown in the wind here on earth and they attach themselves to things and they can be in the environment and they stick to bodies and everything. And so and they'll have reactive minds. So at Scientology's upper levels, if you get sick or you have cancer or there's something wrong with you, Scientology will say, That's one of your body things. You need to get some auditing to fix the body things.

By most accounts, Scientologists struggle when they read this for the first time because this is not consistent with what Scientologists are hoping for is on the RT levels. They're hoping for some real life-changing magic. The way these things are described and sold there, Remember, they're hoping that these Otsi levels are going to make them give them the ability to go like completely independent of their body at will. Yeah, exterior ice from your body, go back into your body, you know, like, I have some real spirit powers.

Yeah, because also part of the Scientology member, it works 100% of the time when used 100% correctly. And if it doesn't, it could be because something's not being done, right? But it also could be because you're doing bad things that you're not telling people about. Like, if you're committing present time over its crimes, sins, Scientologists would be like, that's part of the reason auditing isn't working on you, is because you're committing criminal behavior that you're not being honest about. So every Scientologist is sort of incentivized to make auditing work on them. Now, let's just work as little crazy. On OT3, you learn about the body things for the first time. When you finish OT3, you attest to having achieved the state of having no more body things. And then you start OT4. And he's like, psych, you got more, you got more BTs, except those other BTs, they had drug problems and that's why you couldn't find it in the first time. So we're going to do a little some little different here, just a little different there, got to get rid of these BTs that were addicted to drugs. Okay, then you finish out to you for and you're thinking, man, I hope you get to the good stuff soon. And then you get to OT-5 and he's like, sake, you got more BTs. You couldn't find these BTs because they were all bunched up together in clusters. And first you have to break up the clusters and then you can get rid of the BTs and you're like, okay, gotta do that.

Yeah, this is from L-Round Hubbard. And then after you finish out T5, you get rid of all the BT clusters, OT6 is just a training course to teach how to auto OT7. Well, OT7 is now more BTs, except it's in the environment stuff. You're trying to locate BTs. You can find them on your body, but it's just more BTs. Okay. And then OT8 is, remember we talked about in all these auditing sessions throughout the entire Scientology Bridge. You have people who've run hundreds or thousands of past life, whole-track incidents. These memories have become part of their self-identity of who they even think they are. O-T-8, you go through all these past life recalls, and essentially I'm oversimplifying this a little bit. He goes, psych all those past life memories weren't yours. They were your BT's. And he goes, now that you've discovered this, now you know who you are not. and you are ready to find out who you really are. Do we know they don't exist? Yes. In fact, the whole story of how that became known is part of how David Miscavich was able to get rid of Pat Broker and take over power because it was believed that Pat Broker had been wasn't possession of the upper unreleased OT levels. And when Miscavich determined that he was not and there weren't in fact any levels, that was bad. That was a bad day to be David Miscavich, because he now knew he had something on his hands so he could not get himself out of his legs.

Oh, the faith is there. Scientists all just believe that these things do exist. Yeah. I'll run, however, didn't leave anything behind. Does David and the scavenger believe they exist? Oh, no, he knows, he knows they don't exist. I mean, when I say exist, oh, I don't mean do advanced levels of spiritual awareness exist. When I said this, I mean, did El Run Hubbard write down what anyone is supposed to do. Yeah, that's called OT9. That doesn't exist.

Oh, you mean on his face that only Alvahn Hubbard could have ever been the one to do it?

So the best of my ability to know that I believe it to be true. Like I'll give you some all-leave and stupid examples. Like Mike Render's told a story where at the International Base, misgavage actually had like a copper contraption built into the ground, like grounded into the ground to come out where you could hold it and hear something he sort of came up with to your beat, your, it could ground your BTs. could get your BTs that if you're feeling over-estimulated or something, I'm probably slightly bastardizing this story. But he came up with this as a great idea, something to help someone de-stimulate if their BTs were getting a little too interactive. Now, so that's a stupid story that's sort of like, well, it shows you he believes in the concept of a BTs of his creating little rods to get rid of them to ground them into the earth.

Yeah. The conversation about David Miscavers gets really interesting because I could give you a, if I wanted to make the argument that he didn't believe, I could give you a dozen examples to make that argument. I just happen to think that he believes in a different way, whereas your average Scientologist, believes that Alvaran Hubbard was practically infallible, that he thought of everything in advance, he took care of everything before he left, and miscavage still believes in like the main structure of this thing, but he's like, oh, shit. It's falling to me to figure out how to actually make this thing happen. I think miscavage sees himself as someone who has to assert and agree how to go back and fix Alvaran Hubbard's mistakes.

I think in his own way he does. I don't think he wakes up thinking he's screwing Scientologists. I think he sees everyone else is screwing him. I think he sees that it is his job to expand Scientology throughout the world and accomplish the aims of Scientology and he sees that it's not happening and he thinks if everyone else would just stop, if everyone else would get out of his way and stop creating problems for him it would happen. I do think he seems to see himself as someone who is doing good. I think that's fair to say. I think the evidence shows that.

Yeah, without question that is served as a corrupting force.

After the 1993 IRS exemption that Scientology won back, and this information comes from my grinder. That's when David Misgavich, as soon as the checks on his power were removed, Misgavich's behavior changed, markedly.

Yeah. So Shelley misgavage for many years held the job of her post in this organization was David misgavage's assistant. That was her post. It's important to truly understand that and what that means because the fact that she was misgavage's wife is meaningless. And this is something that's hard to, for reggae people in the regular world to truly grasp how meaningless it is in Scientology. For C.org members who are spouses, it means nothing.

You roll the only thing that matters. So, let's say, let's say Shelley was married a day, but she worked in a different organization. She would never be seen with him ever, publicly ever. Wouldn't travel with him, wouldn't go to events with him, nothing. Some time around, 2006 to 2007, and I'm very oversimplifying this. Okay, Shelley basically pissed off Dave to the point where he's like, okay, I'm done with you. I'm gonna take you off of your post. Okay. At that point, she was reassigned to another confidential Scientology base up in Twin Peaks, California. Why am I, the reason I'm providing this type of detail is because we hear that Shelley's missing. Okay. Well, you realize the same people who report that Shelley's mentioning are also the same people who will tell you exactly where she is. Okay. She works at this secretive CST, Church of Spiritual Technology based out in Twin Peaks, California. I have personal confirmation that she was seen and spoken with by someone who knew her well in, I'll say, 2019. Shelley misgabbage is missing in the sense that She hasn't been seen with David Miscavich since about 2006. But because she's no longer his assistant, you would never see her with him.

Certain people who cover Scientology, who have published stories, where Shelley's Miscavich's family member told a story to another family member who told the story to a friend who told the story to a former Scientologist who told the story to a journalist who published the story. Has created the impression that some of Shelley misgavaged his family members are actually talking to the press. When in fact that is never occurred. And so the very people who are publishing about Shelley misgavaged missing have contributed to the fact that Shelley misgavaged does no longer speak to those family members because she thinks they're talking to the press when they never have. It's pretty messed up.

Yeah. So I believe the information that I have that I verified, I'm, I'm, I'm putting out, I'm the one representing it's true without revealing my sources. True. That Shelley was still actively in touch regularly with family members outside of the Sea organization since about until about 2014. So I mean regularly. Okay. So there's no question about her safety during that period. And then someone else who knew Shelley very well did see her and actually have a conversation with her in a public place in 2019 or 2020. Not somebody could still come along and be like, how do we know she's okay? It's been three years. Yeah, okay. You could say that about anybody. You know, there's the nature of working in the highest levels of science,ology, management at these super secretive bases. It's a very weird and unique situation. It has isolation baked in.

Oh, they wouldn't run out like their true believers. They see. They see like there's a sort of a conspiracy theory that runs right through all of Scientology. which is that Scientology represents like an existential threat to the powers that really control, that really control this planet.

It's actually sort of a multifaceted conspiracy. And that on the one hand, I'll run Hubbard points as fingers that like the international bankers. Okay, which has shades of anti-Semitism too.

The IRS now, the IRS is so low on the totem pole. As far as the, I mean, the international bankers, he would say, runs everything. Got it. But use that that these bankers also use big pharma and big psych. to control the population and Scientology is famously against Pharma and Psych. And so this is sort of how Elvron Herbert characterizes like this big war between Scientology that's trying to set everyone free and big Pharma and Big Psych that's trying to enslave everyone on the planet.

big farm and big site so that there's a lot of correlation to other kinds of conspiracy theory yeah uh... it's fascinating but you ask the question um... where uh... why would all these people hold on to their stories they don't they would never want to leak like by even anyone who would want to leak would not not even want to be a Scientologist anymore. Like if you truly believe if you truly believe in Scientology and you got your shoulder to the wheel and your Seeric member, you think Scientology is literally the only thing that can save every being on this planet from a fate of eternal amnesia and slavery. Right? And so it's like, I mean, you see the matrix, right? So you've got everyone once you're unplugged from the matrix and you realized, yeah, you can get plugged back in and live your nice life, but you're a slave. That's how Scientologists see this planet. Actually, they refer to Earth as a prison planet.

I personally, because when I was in those shoes, I say there's nothing anybody could have said to me to get me to change how I felt and thought about Scientology. It's almost foolproof that the more evidence you try to present that there's something wrong with what Scientology is doing, the more you're just working for the psychs. It's very, very difficult. I mean, most people who leave Scientology leave because they have had some personal experience that was just such a grave injustice that had just pushed them beyond the point of what they were willing to experience. I'm not sure I've really ever heard a story of someone going, yeah, I just woke up, you know, I just graduated realized it was all BS and drifted away. You know, it's usually like, no, I really believed and they treated me so horrible. I almost had no choice, but to leave. And then the stories get pretty crazy.

Yeah. And this sort of goes back to the conversation we're having about like, well, does miscavage really believe. And I said, I could make an argument for the fact that he doesn't, right? Because I go, it wouldn't be that hard to change the way Scientology treats people just a little bit. And you'd probably stop losing anyone because Scientologists already believe to such a strong degree. You have to be pretty freaking horrible to people to make him leave. And that's where you go. Well, does Miscavich even want Scientology to expand? Because if he was really being clever about it, it seems like he could at least stop the bleeding and yet he doesn't. So that's where you make the argument. Well, if he doesn't, then he must not want to.

It seems that way. The numbers of Scientologists have been going down and down and down since the early 90s.

Oh, yeah. I did a video about this. It's actually quite easy to get to the number. It's not more than 35,000 in the entire world. And that's being very generous and charitable. That's, I was intentionally generous. I broke it all down and spreadsheet and everything.

Sure. There's about 175 to 200 Scientology organizations in the world. Anybody who's ever worked at these organizations know there's not more than 35 to 50 staff members per org. There's not more than one to 200 public Scientologists per org. I broke down the number of seeric members who'd be working at every continental management unit, middle management, international management. I broke down the mission network and I was generous. I mean, my numbers were like, if L-RON Hubbard came back and they were doing an event, L-RON Hubbard was coming back and announcing O-T-9 in 10, how many Scientologists could we scrape together in every city to come to this event? It wasn't more than 35,000. Now, contrast that to what Scientology says.

Oh, yeah. Dozens of former Sierra members from the international base have told stories of being assaulted by misgavison. In fact, Mike Rinder is probably the one person who's been assaulted by misgavison more than anyone else. He's personally probably even assaulted dozens of times. Who's Mike Rinder?

One of the highest ranking executives in scienceology. He was author. There you go, a billion years.

It's, uh, it really is a fantastic book, because it's the guy that I was born and raised in Scientology and worked personally with Al-Ron Hubbard and worked personally with David Miscavich for decades. It's like, doesn't get much more insider than that.

It's a fantastic book. He also narrates his own audiobook, too. I know you like the audiobooks. That's how I listen to him. So Mike famously, you know, I just said a moment ago, like someone has treated so horribly, even though he's still believed in Scientology, he had no choice but to leave. And he tells the story in that book, and he still believed in Scientology for years after he escaped. For years, because there's this thing called the independent Scientology movement or the free zone, whatever there are people who do Scientology outside of the Church of Scientology. There's just not many of them. But Mike was one of those people who has actually doing Scientology even after he left. Now he no longer believes in that anymore and he doesn't do it. But even though he still believed, even though everything he knew was what he was leaving behind. He still had to leave it behind.

The final thing is when he got to a point where he was no longer being forced to lie to protect El Run Hubbard. he was now being forced to lie to protect David misgavage. And specifically, it was about the allegations of having been assaulted by misgavage. Mike Render was at some event. I might have been a grand opening for a building, a Scientology Building in London. And I believe it was John Sweeney, at that time at BBC Journalist, who stuck a camera in a microphone in my face. Is it true David misgavage assaulted? Is it true? And Mike denied it on camera. And then turned around and to himself is like, This is what my life has been reduced to, lying to protect David Miscavich. This used to be about L. Ron Hubbard. This used to be about Scientology. Now it's about protecting this douchebag. And Miscavich had just issued orders. that was going to send Mike off to Australia. Muscat, like, Muscavich is sadistic. That is, that is without question. So just like meaning, he enjoys inflating pain upon others. So he very specifically was going to tell Mike, tell Render or tell that cock sucker. We're shipping him off to Australia. He's never going to see his wife and his kids again, essentially. And that's when Mike was like, they were the only reason I hadn't already left. Yeah. So if I follow the orders, I'm going to lose him. If I leave Scientology, I'm going to lose him. But at least if I leave Scientology, I'll be free of something. It's fucking sad.

He does a very good job talking about all this in the book. And it took him, it took him like four or five years to get that book done, like it's a polished version, it's a polished version of a story. And I think Mike's about getting ready to start his own YouTube channel, so that'll be a lot of fun. Actually, Mike comes on my channel all the time. Yeah, you guys, you guys do a thing together, right? Yeah, we do three of me goes with me and Mike Rinder and Mark Adley. That's why I gave you Mark's books. I thought maybe you would know him from our little three of me goes our Mondays with Mike and Mark videos.

So he escaped from the international base on a motorcycle. It's a wild story. I won't even try to do it justice.

You're not going to get me there, like.

Mike and Mark are both on the board of the aftermath foundation. Who's better looking? No. It's one of my justifications for just putting up content every day as every video is just an excuse to in some little way promote the aftermath foundation. And I do that again, one to genuinely help people escape. And two, because I know it drives David Miscavich crazy.

I don't think it's anger. I don't hate, I don't hate Scientology. I don't hate David Miscavich. I don't even hate my experience in Scientology.

Yeah, absolutely. But it's also the only path that I traveled. So I tend, no, I'm okay, a little less of these days, but earlier in life, I tended to attribute all my positive characteristics in me to Scientology, because in my simplistic way of thinking, I was like, what else could it possibly be attributed to? That's a very black and white way of saying.

But like another example would be like, I think I'll go to school, Alex. I stopped going to school on the seventh grade, but people go, but you sound so smart. And what am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to say, well, that's because of Scientology. Like, how do I answer that question? Like, if it's the only path I traveled, how do I answer that question? I don't necessarily want to give Scientology credit, but what am I supposed to point to? Sure.

There is a joy. I'm not going to deny that.

It's almost like, let me try to, let me try to frame it. I wasn't trying to get kicked out of Scientology. I was trying to not get kicked out of Scientology. I, you know, so what happened first, first my mom got kicked out for basically talking some smack about David misgabbage. And then they go to me and they go, okay, you've got to disconnect from your mom or you're going to get kicked out. And I lied about that. I was like, okay, I'll do this. But I never did for a couple of years. I lied to my ass off about it. Eventually, they were like, this guy's going to keep lying to us, right? And they're like, yeah, like, all right, you're out. So then they go to my wife. So you got to divorce your husband or you're going to get kicked out. And she goes, no.

It's gonna get harder for me or so. I'm not quite sure how to.

Okay. So she's like, no. Something they got her her parents. And they say, you've got to disconnect from your daughter and your three-grade daughters. But you're gonna get kicked out. But they have three other kids who are Scientologists, who have spouses who are Scientologists, who have grandkids. So I feel like up until that point, everybody was sort of making a decision for themselves and what would be best for themselves until they get to her parents. And then they're like, which grandkids are we going to lose? At the part where they were trying to get me to disconnect my mom? They were hours that I spent talking to them going, you know, guys. There's another way. It doesn't have to go this way. There's another way that ends well for all of us. And that wasn't even considered. And I go like, they created this monster. And that's a fact. And that's why I take joy in it. When people ask me a Scientology, a destructive cult, I don't even have to get into all the academic discussions of what's a religion and what's a cult and what's a difference. I go as long as they destroy families like that, they're cult.

I mean, it started with L. Ron Hubbard, laying out a policy framework, a policy structure that if interpreted and applied in the worst possible way with the worst possible judgment can be abused in that way, I would make the argument that if an Annie broker had taken over, that Scientology policy does have enough little caveats baked into it that even the policies about disconnection could be interpreted and implemented in a non-destructive way. There is room for judgment and discretion. and misgavage has just created the worst possible version of Scientology, and that's where you sort of get the argument of, does he even want Scientology to succeed? Because he seems to be held bent on making sure that he doesn't. And I don't want to see him make it succeed, but it does bring that question up of like, what are his motivations? Can he not see that he's destroying the thing he's supposed to be expanding?

100%. There's no one I look at in Scientology that I go, how dare you. If I was in the shoes, having to, you know, operate an understatement scavengers orders, I would have done the same thing and I would have loved it. Truthfully, I don't blame any of them. I mean, I take the opposite approach. If they knew what I knew, they'd be doing what I'm doing. If they knew what I knew and believed it, they'd be doing what I'm doing. They're not dumb. It's not dumb people in Scientology.

And it's one of the reasons I like putting up content on my channel so they can see, hey, like if you're a Scientologist, you look at that new, hey. He seems like he's doing well. He's kind of his happy. He's a positive guy. He's a good communicator. He knows what he's talking about. He's not lying. He's not exaggerating. I don't exaggerate anything on my channel. I don't make up anything. And this is actually comes from an experience I had from 1998 to 2000. I was living in LA. I showed at a two-year period of my life where I actually had almost no contact with Scientology. And during that time, I found my way onto the internet. And there was a website, it might have been ESMB, X Scientology Message, but whatever it was, it was at that time, the main source of critical information about Scientology on the internet. And I looked at it. And remember, I was still a true believer. And I looked at this. And it was so offensive, insulting, hyperbolic, exaggerated, I was like, ah, just a bunch of bullshit. I was in Scientology for 16 more years. If what I had seen on the internet about critical of Scientology, if what I had seen when I had seen it was something that actually resonated with me, that I was like, oh, that I believed was true. That seemed credible. I would have gotten out of Scientology 16 years earlier. So I was like, How can I help create an experience on the internet that if a Scientologist stumbles upon it, it will resonate with them instead of repelling them? And that is exactly what I have set out to do and what I believe I've accomplished.

He genuinely loves it. And also, misgavage does there's one celebrity who does have the most unique experience in Scientology and that is Tom. Scientology hires all of Tom's staff. There are no all of Tom's staff are subject to interrogations by Scientology, not only in the hiring process, but during the employment like David Miscavich and Scientology runs Tom Cruise's life and his production company and his household staff.

Best friends. I mean, it's them against the world. Yeah. It's how they say it. I think it's pretty easy to see how that works between the two of them.

If they could figure out how to do all that without destroying families and bankrupting its members, they might actually have a future. That's why it's funny because I feel like it's like I'm rooting for them to like succeed and do it right. And I'm not, but it's an interesting academic discussion to have of like we can all see how much people will sacrifice in the names of belief and religion. We can see how much Scientologists sacrifice based on what they already believe. if he would just start treating people less horribly. You know what I'm saying? They might actually have a future.

That's very because I've actually come out and said definitively, uh, I do not know of a single person who stays in Scientology because they're afraid of being blackmailed. It's just not a thing. It's just not a thing. Does Scientology have enough information to blackmail someone if they want to do? Well, sure. I mean, and it doesn't have to be true. It could just be lies. Who cares? Who knows? Scientology can say whatever the Hollywood want. So that's the thing. It doesn't even have to be true. And actually, that would be the argument against blackmailing. Like in order for Scientology to blackmail you with that information, they'd actually have to represent that, yes, he really did tell us this. And it's like, well, why are you spilling secrets of members, right? Like it sets a bad precedent?

Most of the sins from a Scientology perspective are just doing or saying anything that brings disrepute to Scientology itself, right? Remember, they don't, it's not like Christianity where there's rules. If you break this rule, you're not getting into heaven. Yeah. Because Scientology doesn't think about things. Oh, there's the drug. You can't do drugs, right? You can't do drugs. And you can't take any psychotropic medications.

You're allowed to take medications. There's no rules, especially prohibiting it. It's just most Scientologists tend not to. You can take Adville, but many Scientologists won't. You just can't take anything prescribed by a psychiatrist, a psychologist, or any drugs that are psychotropic drugs. I mean, SSRIs are considered probably the closest thing to pure evil in the world of Scientology.

They're used to not be. It's become very puritanical in the last many decades. For a reason I can't actually explain, like, misgavage does seem to be infatuated with controlling sex. Like that is one thing about misgavage version of Scientology that's gotten very strange. I mean, I'll run hybrid even specific of a policy that says, we are no longer going to Regulate in any way the bedroom activities of people. He literally said from this point on, no one is allowed to be subject to any justice actions of any kind whatsoever for anything they do in their sexual lives. But that was still did not give permission for gay relationships. That was still referring to straight stuff.

According to that over on Hypert policy, you can. Yeah, but you know, I think you've wrote that policy before he created the seorganization. And then what happened is this is actually how this came into effect. He created this organization. You had a lot of people on a ship and everybody was banging each other and it created just a nightmare of personal relationship that it was making production impossible. Not because everybody was spending so much time banging, but because everybody was still upset about who was banging you.

But not because I'm like fully conversant with the academic differentiation between what's a religion and what's a cult. I mean, Scientology would say, well, all small new religions are cults. And I don't know, that's probably true. Some people would say, all religions are cults. And I'd be like, depends on how you define religion. It depends on how you define cults. But I just fall back on my thing of like, if you're destroying families and bankrupting your members, you're a cult. That's

And they, but I'll tell you, I trained you Jitsu as well and I have found that community of people to be one of the most loving and helpful group of people ever. Shout out to John Keller, Gracie Baha'a Claywater. Um, no, but seriously, like it's one of, uh, it's one of the reasons I continue to do it despite my back, my hip, my shoulder. It's like it's just such a cool group of guys.

But if you know, it's kind of remarkable. They haven't been able to capitalize on these bot armies because there's one thing that they have. It's a lot of tax-free money that they got nothing else better to do. So you know, they just they should give you a call like they just don't have the right people apparently.

That is the one way they effectively put their money to use. It is lobbyists and attorneys, judges. Very rarely have they ever been able to just get a politician on their side. It's behind the scenes people. You know, Greta van Sustrins is a very high-level long-term Scientologist. And her husband, I always get it wrong and see the Jim Colour John Colour, I always get it wrong. He's a very powerful attorney who has a lot, wields a lot of influence behind the scenes. And that's just one example. Like, the reason why that's an interesting example is because he's actually a Scientologist and he travels in those circles. Scientology, though, its money goes to good use by hiring non-scientologists, retired judges, attorneys, lobbyists. It really is how they get almost anything done. Like, misgavage himself is not hobnobbing and in glad hang and shaking hands and meeting these folks. It's the non-scientologist professionals who work behind the scenes on Scientologies behalf.

I meant more of the courts and regulators, not the police department, but for example, it can come down to something as simple as this. Sign in clear water, Scientology, hires clear water police to do off duty work for them. They pay like three times the normal off duty rate. So they will, even though I'm not aware of anyone on the Clearwater PD who's actually a Scientologist, they basically end up with, they would call them allies or safe points, right? People who, like, will literally operate a Scientology spies. You know, someone comes in and falls a report about some child sex case. Someone in the Clearwater PD is calling Sarah Heller at the Office of Special Affairs at the Flying Glad and Base to let her know. Hey, heads up. We got a thing coming in and then Scientology can run around and go talk to all the Scientologists who have knowledge about this and either get them out of Clearwater.

Yeah, I call it soft corruption. So another example, you have the mayor of Clearwater, Frank Hibbert. Well, he used to when when he won his recent election, he stepped down from some of his nonprofits that he served on. But the nonprofits that he served on also gets millions of dollars of donations from some of Scientology's richest clearwater members, right? You have one of the mayor's best friends, Joe Burdette, literally a paid lobbyist for Scientology. So that creates a chilling effect on anyone who's going to be talking smack about Scientology because his friends are on their damn payroll. So, um, I call it soft corruption. It's not illegal. It's not illegal. Um, but it's house Scientology wields influence. And what's what's ironic is that a lot of these people who work on Scientology behalf actually secretly hate Scientology.

I think it's one of those things that once you've seen behind the curtain, you see the Wizard of Oz is just a silly man. You just don't have any fear. Now, it's one of these things like people say, oh, you're so brave. And I got, what's that quote? Bravery is, you know, being a soldier and being afraid and going in any way. It's not brave to run. And if you don't think nothing's going to happen to you. Like so I'm just trying to like I do not hold myself up as an example of bravery because yeah, I thought like oh, they could destroy me, but I don't care. No, there's not a damn thing they can do to me and it's one of that's one of the reasons I continue to put out content every day to just basically go hey still here I dare you to try to do something about it, but you can't and hope that that also serves as kind of an example for other people to go. If this Shmo can do it, and they can't do anything else to him, then maybe I can do it too, because I would love it. I would love there for be a 20 channels where former Scientologist talk about their experience.

knowing how the family was going to be destroyed and trying to prevent that. I was terrified of that happening. But it happened. There's nothing left to be afraid of. And that's kind of the thing like they created this beast and the same is true from Mark Hedley, the same is true from Mike Render. I said they've essentially created a Scientology Proof virus, a Scientology Resistance strain by throwing everything they have at us for so many years. They have just through natural selection created people who just do not give a damn about anything they could or would do and maybe there is something a little wrong with me because when I get a phone call from someone like I just got this phone call about you and it's clear that it's Scientology PI's doing work behind the scenes. I get really excited. I get really excited. I don't get nervous. I don't know what's happened. I'm like, oh, yeah. This is going to be exciting. I'm like, okay, because everything they try to do to me I'm going to figure out how to reflect it back on them and make them look ridiculous.

Yes. If you most of my episode on the Lee Remnant in the aftermath show was talking about me and my twin brother. It's just a pretty horrible story. This is a pretty horrible story. So I do have a younger brother who's still in Scientology and disconnected from me, but I never had much of a relationship with that brother. Really to begin with, right? But my twin brother died when I was like 23 or 24. And that was without any question, a direct result of our Scientology experience. You know, he died in a car accident that wasn't technically his fault or anything like he wasn't even the one driving. But the fact, the specific fact of his death was not meaning like the fact and the manner of his death and wasn't like specifically because of Scientology. But our story and how where our relationship got to, and how he was even in a position of having something like that happened to him is directly attributable, design-tology.

Yeah, for sure. And this is some, you know, we were identical twins. Can you imagine two of me?

Two moments would equal the darkest moment. It would be that. And also just the period of, you know, six, nine, 12 months of impending doom. Knowing that my wife's whole family was going to be obliterated And that there's nothing we could do about it. And in kind of telling ourselves every step of the way it wasn't really going to happen, you know. And I really felt like you ever watched the Ozarks. I felt like Marty Bird. Now this was happening before the Ozarks, but when I watched the Ozarks and I see that character. the entire world is crumbling down around him and all he can all he can all I didn't like. All right, what's the next step? I watched Marty Bird and I go, that's my fucking spirit animal because you can only control what you can control. And you can't keep Scientology from destroying your family. And literally, like I, it's funny, I mentioned to show a lot because I watched that and I go like, that's exactly how I felt. You know, I talked about this six months or nine, 12 months, whatever was of impending doom. It's not like I was an emotional wreck during that time. You know, in private I was, but it's not like I was just freaking out. It was like the sun's gonna come up tomorrow. The world's gonna keep spinning. I can't control it. This is hard. I can't believe this is happening. But tomorrow's a new day. I've never personally, even at the darkest times, I've never experienced anything that I would characterize as depression, certainly not ever any suicidal thoughts or anything. And even in the darkest of times, and again, this one thing that I go, is it because of Scientology or is it just me? There really is an emotional detachment.

What do we do here? And then once I figure out the answer to that question, I'm actually quite chipper and happy. You know, like that's sort of my default. Like you could give me six horrible options. Once I figure out the best of those six, I'm gonna feel like I just had a pretty good day.

And he almost gets pissed off at everyone around him for being so pouty about it. but you know it's like you know it's still simmering there right under the surface like pretty damn close to the surface do you know what I mean yeah and um people sometimes ask about recovery and whatnot and like what does that look like and what does that mean and sort of goes back to kind of the emotional detachment is I go What the fuck does recovery even mean? If you're an alcoholic and you're recovering, you know what that means. I used to drink. I don't drink now. Well, I used to be in a cult and I'm not in a cult now. How else am I supposed to feel about this for someone to be like, it seems like you've recovered. What the fuck does that even mean? Like I'm sure some academic has an answer to that question. I'm not someone who particularly, I don't spend any time thinking about that. My recovery is success and a little bit of trolling and revenge. But mostly success. You know, what does it mean to be a recovered former cult member? What you don't cry? I wouldn't be asking about your brother. I don't know what it means. I've never had therapy but not because I'm still like against it from Scientology. I just like, I'm not going to pay to talk to someone. Do you know where else I could do that? Scientology. No, I know there's a lot of people going like, oh boy, I know there's a lot. I'm not sitting on therapy. I would rather have a beer with my friend and talk about this shit. Yeah, then talk to a professional for $200 an hour. It's a kind of therapy.

If I can make my kids happy, that's success to me.

Travel the world. get rid of friends who don't push you up and don't celebrate your success. It's hard to give that advice to young children because kids are always so caddy. But honestly, it's like when I see that really is, I just think not just advice to my kids, but some of the best advice to anybody. If you've got anyone around you who doesn't celebrate your success, just spend less time with those people. Surround yourself with people who actually want to celebrate your success and push you to succeed. I think that's true. I think it's even more important at a young age, because if at a young age you get used to being around people who kind of take joy and tearing you down, then that's what you become accustomed to. And I just think, you know, having friends who love you and support you is just about the closest thing to the true meaning of life.