Transcript for Season 4 Discussion: Questions, Thoughts & More

Hello, I'm fantastic. How are you?

Thank you so much for doing this and having me. I'm excited to chat, malevolent.

I hope I'm hoping that I have enough to add to it that my voice wasn't completely in just the show and nothing else, but I don't know. Maybe I'll have some thoughts that exist beyond what the clever fans have already created.

Oh, man. It feels good. It's really, you know, when I had the idea, season one for the, you know, the multiverse, the dark world, all the kind of it was before all the hot, hot Marvel movie. stuff. I mean, obviously that existed in comic books well well before. It is by no means a new idea whatsoever. It was also something I had used in my role playing campaigns. I always love the idea of connectivity and connectivity through characters that you play. You sit down on a D&D game with me. Well, what if your character in this, you know, is a long distant cousin from this other campaign that we played? I just always found that really comforting and really fun. So it was something that kind of carried over from my RPGs, but intermezzo was kind of yeah, it was the final point that I got to clarify and boy did it take a long time to like crystallize it in the script of what the bigger picture here is in malevolent. You know, to agree, yes, it's all led to this. I know a lot of people, especially in season two, when I think the show started to really blossom and people were asking, you know, how is this going to be satisfying if you're just writing it chapter to chapter? And I would always say, well, no, there is an underlying theme, you know, there is an underlying kind of feeling and there is an underlying story. And I think season four and Intermezzo are really a big weight off my shoulders hoping that the fans are like, Oh, good. Okay, so not so much just the answers, but the trust being like, okay, cool. So there was a reason he did this. There was a reason because with the nature of my writing, we'd buy we gather certain things. I kind of have to play jazz with, there's certain things I do have to kind of make up on the fly. But I don't want that to be the cost of the larger picture that malevolence going. So it feels really good. It feels like a weight off my shoulders and exciting, frankly. I want to see all the theories really spinning now, you know?

Well, getting answered the second one quicker. No, I don't. There's a lot with the old call up with who games that A, I want to not really worry too much about. But B also, it's just a huge, you know, it's a huge time sink for people and truth be told the stuff that I'm taking from them. is summed up more or less in terms of so you don't need to worry too much. I think the benefit or the beauty of it is going back kind of is like watching the behind the scenes footage from Lord of the Rings. You know, it makes things a little better. You're like, oh, you know, Ergon, broke his toe there. That's so cool. That's where the connection came. To me, it enhances malevolent, but it doesn't answer it. So I wouldn't say, don't bother if you don't want that. But, you know, if you're done listening to malevolent, you need more, they're the perfect kind of outlet. And how was it balanced? Was the first question?

Yeah, it was tough because it's, it's a real, you know, verbal payload being dropped by cane who typically isn't somebody who's serious in the way they try to, you know, give exposition and stuff like that. So it's funny because I tried to make it really playful and then there's a point where I writing it was like, I think I'm losing the audience. And Kane is kind of like, get it? No, okay, look here. And then he just like really breaks the damn cold notes. And that was like purposeful. I was like, I should double beat some of this stuff to make sure the important bits land, because I recognize how difficult it is sometimes to just hear somebody, even someone as entertaining as Kane, to just like, lower dump on you. But, you know, for the most part, I think I've done a pretty good job of including enough of those games that I want to carry over in small drips and drabs to make what Kane says a connection rather than a whole new piece of the puzzle. You know what I mean? We talked about Henry McFarlane too. his daughter is mentioned in episode one. He talks about Frank Underhill, who's mentioned in season two, and kind of becomes a character that the King and Yellow takes on to try to manipulate Arthur. So it kind of feels more like answers than it does in outright new piece of the story, which is what I was trying for. So part, you know, set up means that the payoff is less. right turn because I think that's a big thing I try to I try to make it that when you go back you go oh yeah that that what and you know a good example being in the final episode part 40 when you're listening to it a null and Arthur have a quick conversation before going into the room with the machine where Arthur says well you know and it's not just two of us and and know says that's right and they're talking about the butcher But I kind of wrote that trying to be clever because I really didn't want to tip my hat. I really wanted that to reveal to be a hard twist. Well, I think I successfully got most people. I'm excited to expand on my motivation for that. But anyway, I wanted it to be vague enough that people would automatically assume, oh, yeah, well, obviously talking to John, but also going back being like, oh, they're talking about the fucking butcher. So, you know, when you set up, when I set up things like that, I feel like that twist is a little bit more earned. And again, I think that's a big part of that balancing act in the end where it's kind of like, these are answers more than than just new lore.

sub set like getting their bodies back season three was really just about like survival like it was about we got to get the fuck out of here and then their motivations change and then season four was all about getting to the order of the fallen star we don't really know what we didn't really know what the author had in mind for like the series like why does he say it ends after season six what's like what is the main plot here and that was purposeful because I didn't want to introduce the main plot point in season one or two just to have it drawn out forever you know I I want it to be more of like a Here's what I want. Here's what you can do about it and now go do it, type 5. So, you know, it feels really good for me as well.

I definitely intended him to be a major antagonist because at the end of season three, you know, I sort of intended Larsen to be this this shorter villain solved in season three with my mind. But you again, you know, with the Patreon choices in the way my mind kind of has to reset every week to kind of see where the story goes. I ended up really enjoying him and being like, you know what this feels like, kind of a bigger figure, ironically, and such a small, kind of like weeny body. So, you know, like there was some serious consideration, even at the end of season three, that when Arthur came up to the mansion that he was going to kill Larson, and then I kind of tweaked it and thought, no, you know what this makes more sense, and it's more satisfying if Larson's completely gone, you know? retooling of villains and stuff like that, you know, made me consider, okay, well, you know, if I like Larson now, I need, I need a more minor villain. So I really wanted to do that introduction of like the minor villain type trope. And, but I fully intended that there would be a cat and mouse game. It's funny because like starting the season four, I knew the vibes of what I wanted and I kind of wanted this like, New York detective brutality like I wanted like slamming of trunks and shotguns and like splatters of blood and I wanted panting running down the street and I wanted like chasing and I don't know I just the vibe was like more 70s New York exploitation cop film then straight up malevolent And I think there are moments in there that I succeeded at that. Ultimately, I don't think it would have worked if I tried to do the whole season like that. But like that whole butcher arc where it's his perspective is really I could point to as what I was really aiming for for season four like brutal, you know, the way he, the way the butcher just was the way that guy who's like hiding in a closet is like so Perfect in my mind for the tone of the season. Rich is like, okay.

It's brutal. And I always knew that I wanted the butcher to be that. And I think what was interesting is as I wrote the butcher who I was a character I was familiar with and Arthur. the similarities between the two, you know, the dichotomy, the reflections, you know, the brutality, the nature of, you know, killing and all that kind of stuff, I enjoyed their conversations. And what I did see, and I think a lot of the people saw those who, you know, shipped them or made them friends or whatever, saw also this kind of like duality in their personalities. And as that came, that's when the realization dawned on me of, oh, you know what, I think, There is a route here where the butcher has turned and come to respect his prey, his quarry, you know, who's now kind of got to drop on him more or less. There's like an honor amongst thieves type vibe from the train episode. I never intended that the butcher would befriend Arthur at the end or be on his side. However, I knew the character well enough that he had honor in him. You know, that's why he tips his hat. The first thing you see at the end is when Arthur best sim, he literally removes his hat and like is like, hey, you got me and looking back now, you know, that that character understanding that character more or less is what makes the ending so obvious because it's like, well, here's a guy who respects the game and gets it, you know, and and when he loses the game, he's not petrolin about it because he has some really good moments where like Arthur is like, you know, digging his heels in and he gets the better of Arthur here and there, you know, but for the most part, he he respects it. And I thought that was a really cool thing. And when it came to the finale or part 40, I should say, I sat down and I was like, well, look, Larson got the better of Arthur when they met and Larson to an extent got the better of Arthur in New York because you know he set sick the butcher on him but Arthur's not an idiot and he also has no now and I was like if you had eight hours to kill what's your play and in my mind I you know I pictured at the end of part 39, Arthur talking to Marie for a few hours. And you know, as his mind is drifting, she's wobbling on about whatever, you know, he gets this idea and he's like, excuse me, he goes calls Noel and he's like, have an idea and they meet up and he pitches ideas and knows like that's crazy and then the two of them go to the prison or go to the police station and they have this like conversation and you know the butcher is like all right okay fine I can get behind this and and to me that all made sense and I was like well that then that's perfect so that that is how I I let the audience know that Arthur is deserving of his title of like a detective you know

I think yes. I think there's a subset of Arthur that brutal Arthur, that one who shoved his thumbs through uncle's eyes, that recognizes the beast within all of us. And a lot, you know, a lot of malevolent is about choices. It's about who you are choosing to be in that moment. And I think I'm getting a lot of flack from Intermezzo for people being upset about John's choice and Intermezzo. And I think that if you don't see how obviously he would make that choice, then you're not really understanding what John is and what Arthur is for that matter. Because if I flip the characters, I think Arthur would do the same thing. Because it's not, to me, the choice John makes at the end there is a social, is a human failure, you know, it's a human issue of being like, well, you know, if I could erase this person's memory and I just fucked up, I would totally do it. The truth of the matter is, you know, this person can do it, ultimately he doesn't, but you know, the tantalizing notion of just getting a little reset is like, oh, then I, you know, I can do this. So, you know, I think as much as Arthur is always trying to choose the better path and same with John, They fuck up. I think the big difference is Arthur, even though he pushes it down, he's aware of it so much more than John is. Especially after season three, I think the season four Arthur subconsciously knows like, okay, yeah, there's like there is an ability in me to be pretty violent. And it's fun to tap into that sometimes I suppose. We see it in chapter 40 or part 40.

For the call, presumably games are for this. Yes. Well, so the call of Kuzugames, yes, he kills a guy in the bathroom 100%. And I definitely meant it to be a parallel to butcher. And it's funny you mentioned that because, yes, that's one of those things. It's like, well, if you've heard the games, you get the direct parallel. I meant it to kind of be a companion piece to the person that the butcher kills in the barber shop in prologue as a less overt parallel because the two of them have brutality over them, you know, he's not questioning them in the prologue, obviously. He just straight kills the guy, but the idea of like walking in the room really calmly, the guy talking to him, you know, I wanted to make an indirect parallel so that those searching would be like, oh shit, you know, part 39 and prelude have similarities between Arthur and Butcher.

Well, and I got a lot of flack from, I think it was part 37, or maybe part 38, where Arthur calls John a kid, a child. There's a certain subset of people who were believing that I was trying to imply that those who ship them, that there's some sort of like, you know, belittling going on. That wasn't my intention. Arthur calls John a child, because emotionally he is not not physically but the fact that Arthur is realizing that John is only new to these concepts and you know the idea that I mean and maybe this is just for my perspective as being a parent of a six year old and a four month old you know like My son can walk up to me, put a hand on my back and say, you know, daddy, I love you. I'm so sore. You had a terrible day. You can do better. You can do everything you ever want. And I'll say, thank you, Henry. And then he'll fart and be like, I can't believe that we don't have pizza for dinner and storm in the room. Like children are like that because they're emotionally immature. They don't understand. And that's why in season three, John can have these emotional depths of like I won't let you fail and then the next moment be like okay, but Oscar needs to go because he doesn't he doesn't have 30 40 50 years of like understanding that break next switching that fast is not good or helpful. He doesn't get the bigger picture yet. He doesn't have wisdom you know what I mean and I think a lot of people may have misinterpreted Arthur calling him a child, which is why in the direct next part he addresses it. He's kind of like, no, no, you're a child because you're a mature. And I think that's exactly exactly exemplified in intramasso. When you tell a child, I mean, are you telling me You know, like a kid, a six year old kid who was exactly caught for, you know, having their report card lost in the mail and then you said, listen, we can pretend this never happened and I will erase mom and dad's memory. If you, if you'd like that, you wouldn't go, yes, I'll take that, please, yes, please that. Like it's, it's to me, it's so obvious, you know?

Yeah, it's like a spoiled kid and then up until eight and then bringing them into a house where they got nothing. It's like, listen, beans off the floor. Like, that's as much as you get and, and, you know, and they're happy for them. Like, okay, like, I'm, I'm, I'm, because, you know, John's not a bad person or bad character. He's just a troubled character. And I think I think it's pretty clear throughout the series of the show that that's the case. I think a lot of people were frustrated, thinking that season three's moment where John has that with Arthur was like the end of his turmoil. And I, you know, I get it, but that's a bit, but no, because season three ended with him decept deceiving Arthur as well. So I think I always intended to be like, yeah, but is he really done now? Is he fully cooked now? Because he helped his friend, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I think John is being introduced to that part of humanity, you know, or I suppose childhood where, you know, you've outgrown, I guess adolescence, you know what I mean? Where he's no longer a child where everything is like done for him. And he's always been struggling, you know, with Arthur to an extent, but he's kind of ebbed and flowed to the point where, you know, maybe there's been moments where he's laid back and be like, you know what, I'm actually going to enjoy this ride. I'm just going to help. But as he becomes more and more mature in a way, he's also recognizing that there's there's a line in episode 40 where the king and yellow where Arthur says to the king and yellow that you'd be trapped in Larson and John sort of says trapped like kind of realizing or not realizing but like reminding himself that he is a prisoner. And I think one of the big changes in his character in 40 is that we've learned that John has a new ability, which is that he can now project himself outside of Arthur, which A means, okay, well, what other abilities does John have? Does he have the capacity to do? And B, how does John feel about all that kind of stuff? And obviously season five is going to have to first and foremost deal with. the betrayal of what the hell John just did to him. But I think, and I'm excited for season five season four, I wanted to focus on Arthur, you know, we get nightmare flashbacks of it froze birth, we get, um, to visit his father, we get Arthur to interact with all these characters. Season five, I intend to be more like not necessarily John focused, but to dive into his mentality. You know, without spawning too much, I want a little bit of the other side of the coin now to kind of understand where he's at. So I think we're going to see a really interesting realization from John. And yeah, without spawning too much, There's going to be some opportunities early in season five where John is going to get to kind of for the first time layout who he is for the audience. You know what I mean? I have a few ideas for some really cool episodes because we get to see a lot of Arthur side of things and we don't get to see much of John side of things. So but suffice to say that I think we're only just about to see where John sees himself and how he feels about all of what's been going on. uh... for better for worse because i obviously there's moments where i think like anybody john feels powerful when he gets to pull arthur out of the brink you know power is a big theme you know being powerful doesn't make you better is which is said echoed by john which is something arthur says not even to him but to yellow in season three in the finale and here we are also kind of we have to acknowledge that arthur and john are struggling for power in a an emotional sense, you know, like the reason John was so comfortable and this gets addressed and I think part 38 as well. The reason John was so comfortable with Arthur and the end of the season three is because he had the emotional power. He got to pick his friend up. You know how how validating that feels if you're in a room, excuse me, if you're in a relationship and your partner is crumbling and you're like, hey, listen, like you can do this. Of course, you're being loving and caring, but you also have this thrill of like I just helped somebody that feels so good. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of people think that feelings like that exist in a bubble. You know, it's like when you when you have people online handing bottles of water to homeless people, it's like they're filming it for a reason. They're not just doing it because they're good. They're doing it because they also want people to make them feel good about doing a good thing. And that's why the many shades of humanity. exist in the level I've never ever tried to make these characters too dimensional and I think it's much of the secret of many listeners because they think well no John is good now or John is bad now or you know Arthur's good now Arthur's bad now and I feel like since day one it's been like No, that's not if anything that echoes the multiverse theory more than anything is that there are so many versions of us so many ways that we can be perceived that Arthur in one episode can say I'll never heard another living thing in another episode gouge the eyes out of of of weird Ram person you know So long story short, we'll see a lot of John's true mentality in season five is my plan, you know?

I have a format idea for season five that I think will be really fun.

Oh, very important. I think the audience picked up on that right away. I think that moment was more or less specifically engineered to be a counter to how he felt about Oscar, you know, like John was introduced to Lillian Humanity, you know, days ago, more or less in that, but What we now know with Intermezzo is that he also spent a long time in the dark world between Lily and coming back to Arthur and season three when he comes back, you know, we don't know how long he's been gone and he's just kind of thankful. He's like, oh my god, yes, thank you. You know, he's kind of the opposite of season one where he's just manipulative. Now he's just like thankful, which is why it's so easy for him in season three to kind of be like, Okay, everything's great. Everything's great. I got to do this thing with Kay and I got to fulfill my obligation, but everything's great. It's fantastic. You know now he is sort of falling back into his old ways as New York is kind of playing out. and he's realizing, oh god, no, this is still, this isn't the savior I thought. I'm out of the dark world. I'm feeling better, but I'm still lost in this. And I think he, especially with Oscar, becomes callous because he's lost so much of his voice in the season to agree that he's removed himself from the desire for humanity after such a long time in the dark world. To a degree, obviously he's not not ready to abandon it, but he just isn't focusing on it in any way shape or form. And he's like, well, you know, get rid of Oscar. It's easier. And when that realization comes out, and it's like, whoa, fuck, what are you talking about? He sort of has this moment of like, this is gonna be fine. Like, this is good. They're in the car driving and John's like, see, like, this is what we wanted. And he's sort of internalizing and being like, right? This is good. This is better now. It's just us again. It's going to be cool. So I think that like hit some like a ton of bricks when he realizes, you know, if he had a chance to speak with Oscar, Oscar would have been equally as empathetic possibly if he believed Arthur and that he sees the figures in Arthur's life not as just these obstacles or just these things that Arthur is interacting with but is empathetic creatures the way he saw Lily you know what I mean and that's why Lily was something he empathized with because it wasn't anything that took away from his experience Lily was just a part of their journey together you know and it was easy for him to connect to that but these other things are just obstacles doing the way you know like I want to be the one that's talking Arthur because that's what we fucking do man like and now he's like oh shit knows a real dude as well and that was so important for what happens in episode 40 because John jumping out of Arthur's skin isn't about Arthur. It's about Noah. It's about him empathizing with a creature to the point where he can manifest power. So that's a huge development in terms of, I guess, his character. And I suppose that's really what your question was, which I think is really fair. I guess to me, because I haven't got to dive into the meat and potatoes of him explaining that yet, it feels It feels like I haven't got to sink my teeth into it yet, you know what I mean? And that's how one of the issues with writing piecemeal is that until I get to sit down and write the episode where John talks about that feeling, I know what I've intended with it, but I haven't got to actually express it yet. But yeah, you're entirely right. That is really a big turning point in his character because that's Yeah, that's when he's sort of learning that these figures and Arthur's life aren't just figures. They're not just obstacles. Now, of course, that gets kind of like pushed over because the deal with Kane is so much more important for him because he just anything did not go back to the dark world, you know, which is sort of the implication of what that deal means, you know, you do this or else you go back. But yeah, I think that was really, really important for him and a really important thing to make his character really grow.

100%. And I think, again, I established that a little bit in the beginning of 38 or 39 and a little bit at the end of 38, where I think Arthur is during his sort of confession. He's kind of like, I never, you know, I haven't given you a chance to do this. And it was always something I had in my document of ideas and is really funny to go through my document of weird thoughts that like, to see where they ended up. You know, like, for example, I would say, I don't know. Two episodes, like, maybe the first episode of The Butcher is in. Whoa, the first episode of The Butcher is in that he talks about hearing music. I wrote down in my document. Butcher's head explodes. I can't hear the music. I was like, that's how he'll die. Like, that's the best way to die. Because I think that's so cool. I was like, that's so fucking, which to me was like, well, how do I get that? And now I want to be clear a lot of the ideas I write down. If the choices don't make it happen, they just get scratched out. But of the ideas that haven't been scratched out, you know, that was one that ended up kind of getting its path. You know, I would say half of the ideas I was like, oh, you know, like, no, we'll die this way. It's like, ah, it doesn't work anymore because they chose this or whatever across it out.

I mean, and I think that's a really cool and interesting thing that Kate talks about, too. It's like all of these versions that are slightly different. Obviously, it's meta because it's talking about the patrons. And I think I was really, really excited to make that scene because the first choice, and I think most listeners understand that, but that scene in Intermezzo where Arthur

That's the first choice of an entire series. Do you fire? Do you shoot any? And then you know, dark, dark third.

Oh, they'll listen, I fully expect people to be changing their names on the discord to dark Arthur or darker. Joe called it, I mean, you have to listen to it. She's like so many people are changing their name to that. But obviously, you know, all those choices matter. So yeah, that document of like things crossed out, you know, yeah, there are things that in the Intermezzo episode that were choices that got crossed out. And little satisfying things, too, like that hole in the wall, breathing scene, which I'm really curious to how many people are going to understand it right away, how many people are vaguely, and how many people in a media clicks for. Because I was so long ago.

It's so dense. Yeah, but that was a really cool thing I was excited about and I knew again an idea you know I was like listen when Kane is flashing through worlds It they'll go back to that and they'll hear the breathing and it'll be Arthur on the other side of the wall and I was like I thought that was such a cool The shame is the things I didn't get to put in the cane in your mezzo episode because for timing and just work I was like well, it's not really worth it. You know as a writer, you know this half of it is what you just don't include because we're too writing too much becomes I knew I wanted like four flashes that was important and Any more would be superfluous any less it would be too little to demonstrate the power But you know, I had, I had a few ideas. I fully had the idea to show the conversation between the butcher and Noel and Arthur in the thing to be like, look, you know, I did a lot. But again, I was like, well, this is just, it detracts, but just dead now. Let's not hear as voice more fun that way, you know?

fan stuff too, right? Like the amount of AO3s that get to play with alternate realities, which, and this is kind of an illusion to, you know, people who talked about the ferovers and stuff like that, too. And, you know, I've tweeted once, like, you're not the first to come up with this idea, not to say that the amount of work put into it, obviously, but in terms of like, maybe in like, oh, cool, well, there'll be realities with this, realities with this. Like, yeah, there's, I established episode one that there is multiple, you know, realities. You kidding me, like, you don't think I've, I've considered the idea of, of a ferovers to be so cool.

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, so typically my like writing process will be like the idea stage. You know, I'll always be throwing in small little things to how I want it to, you know, be. And for example, I finally enough the book that you gave me. I was using for Intermezzo, and I wrote, so actually, here's a flash that didn't happen. Arthur coma, Kane Pillocchio. I had this idea that Kane brings them to the part where Arthur's in a coma and like walks up and like smother's them with a pillow, to be like, see you die in this one, and I thought it'd be really funny. I also took the baby scene with Arthur very dark in one version. And I actually talked to Joe that I was like, and we both kind of decided, you know what, I think it's just better to leave this. But there was definitely a version where, you know, came was like, hey, you know, I mean, there's a baby here and also. But like here I wrote let me tell you a story story reveals that Henry lived in other worlds Arthur birth kids are great. I have a daughter she'd love you Blackstone is what I want others have failed I'll give you a deal Sam is already I'll make him forget I want you to just succeed Like little kind of notes like that. So, especially a big episode, they can do mezzo will start like that with like a distillation of the big bullet points. And then when I think into mezzo, I was really daunting by because so much has been leading to it. And I wanted to be so succinct with the words and the interpretation that I was kind of overriding the bullet point part and I was kind of getting nowhere. And then the minute I started writing in Caine's voice, I was like, oh, this is so much easier because I know Caine, this is how he tell it. You know, it adds more like pauses and humor and jokes and whatever, just it started flying through. And that's when all the little subtleties started to come out. So once I write in the dialogue and the same with Marie, you know, once I was writing her dialogue and hearing her voice in my head, I realized that there was so much more to her in speaking, you know, like as she's talking, she wouldn't just say, anyway, Arthur is nice to see you, you know, she's like, oh, no, this is like a person. And when I write, I'm seeing it play out in my head. I'm always a visual writer, which is ironic because it's audio. But I'm always a visual writer and I saw her sitting in this like flower pattern high back chair. And I saw the sun leaking through and I saw her looking towards it. And I was like, that is perfect. That makes sense. And once you're in that voice, It's easier to envision the scene. And then I think I get another creative input when I do the sound effects and eddling. So really, I do a part of the writing in eddling in a way, too, and to take into a mezzo, for example, because it's the freshest in my mind. In the final scene, when Caine is telling Arthur to play piano, I originally just had Arthur played the song for Rose Goodbye. And then as I was eddling it, I was like, this doesn't make sense. Arthur would stop and Kane would like forcibly be like, keep going. Because there's just too much, too many dramatic moments in Kane's speech that Arthur would be distracted by. So I ran back to the booth, added a few like, keep going. added artificial pauses, and that's how that happens. And I mean, sometimes it's not big moments either. It's jokes like the closet scene with a cane and dead marker, the clacking of the teeth. That's entirely, I didn't write that. I was just like, I, I, I envision can just be like, okay, Arthur, blah, blah, blah, blah. But there was like, oh, no, he's got a fucking grab this dude's mouth and like, jank it around and you have the spishing. And that elevate it immensely. So that was storytelling I got to do in sound effects. And honestly, this is one of the cool things about getting to do all parts of the show is that I'm directing every aspect of it. You know, I would be so annoying working with actors or a sound effects person. because I'd be like, oh, try this, try this. It's so nice to get to do it myself because as I'm listening back or as I'm remixing, I'm like, oh, no, this needs a little bit more of that. And it's really, really nice to get to do that. So writing in the voice gives me all those kind of moments and writing doesn't stop, I think, until I give it to Joe to listen to. And then even then she'll be like, oh, you know, added pause here or something like that.

Thank you. Yeah, it can's easy to slip in because it's just me with more like just energy, honestly. The toughest thing is just when to record because I'm like, man, it takes a lot of like yelling and laughing and like You know, like all that kind of maniacal heated stuff. But yeah, there's a few, it's funny, because there are a few moments in Kane's speeches in Forty and Intermezzo that, again, weren't written. But I just really liked the, there's a part where he's talking about Arthur. He's like, he just can't really do that.

But I really liked that. That was just like a recording booth thing.

Yeah. Well, and it's funny, too, because I tried to walk the line because I don't want him to be too cartoonish. Like I do want him to feel like you could listen to part 19 and part intermezzo and feel like it is the same character. And I, you know, I do have the tendency sometimes to You know, I mean, John sounds so different from one to now. That is purposeful because I do want, want to that. But I do want, and I do think, especially in Intermezzo, there are moments where Kane is more like calm and like, like he was in 20, which is purposeful. But, but it was, it was, it's really nice to kind of know what a character sounds like in your head. Just an unhinged version of you, I suppose, with a lot of energies.

No, easiest. New York is like more or less like pre pre. And I mean, I mean, I mean, I don't really matter if he's like New York or Boston, like that's really mad. Like no could be putting it on fake in on him. Marie once I found her voice was really easy to do. Well, I should say this. Sometimes I'd have to like retake it because it's speeding up sound a little too artificial and like I would say there's like one or two words in season four that I kind of wish I retook not a big deal. I would say in increasing difficulty Oscar was like kind of up there butcher is like in the middle there were sometimes like prelude butcher is like really Irish 40 butcher is a little less But I'm not too worried about that. Like I think he was putting it on really frankly at the beginning. And Oscar was more difficult just because certain words sound really weird to my ear trying to put on a Scottish accent. I would say top though was the grand vizier. the Werner Herzegg. Werner Herzegg. Once I got into it, I could do it. I had to like talk like him for a little bit to try to, you know, but like it also kind of like sometimes slid into Jamaican weirdly, like I guess because there's like an enunciation thing. I don't really know, but Grand Vizier, I think, was by far the toughest. Oh, you know what? Easiest. Larson. I should have put him first. Larson is fucking simple. My God.

Oh, he's so he's my favorite character in the show, I think. He's such a fucking shit bag. I cannot get over him. In episode 40, I was so happy with how much of a fucking dick. I mean, when he shoots no, it's okay. I can pitch and you know what, like I grew up on 90s movies and like the I feel like the 90s were the height of like the Pachelon villain, where like he like shoots and runs away. Like without a doubt, one of my favorite movies of all time is Robin Hood Prince of Thieves and Alan Rickman is like the most fucking Wii. Yeah. Like he's such a and like the part where Robin Hood bursts in the room at the end and he like grabs me marrying like kisses her. Just it's like such a Fucking scassey thing, but he's also but his portrayals also so pathetic like it's meant to be you know, which I love I love I love love love that villain and you don't see enough of those types of villains they're either like way too bad like listen this is like really super serious like this guy's tough or they're like not really intimidating. And I love the like the little middle ground of like a really pathetic weeny little character. He's like also violent and a piece of shit and intimidating when he wants to be. But like still always under the guise of this like little dweeb and I just I love him so much.

I do think so. I must say, I'm really proud because I think season four really exemplified or really solidified him in my mind as like a proper villain because of just because he's such a piece of shit. Yeah. Such a piece of fucking shit. Yeah. I love it.

I think it's kicked in the dream. My favorite though is like I think I think all of his path led to his no. And I think I said in the discreet, but there's a line where Cain is like, don't you fucking get it? And he's like, no, I don't like, no, like explain it for me, please daddy. And Cain's like, no, you fucking worthless piece of shit kicks him out of there. He's like, you don't get it. Like, name, we choose our names. That's the whole theme, bro. Like, you don't, you don't, you don't. Narrow the throw tip is nothing to me. I'm Cain, idiot.

That's my second favorite line of the well, and that is also one that I have had since oh my god, I can't remember. That one is probably a season two idea that I wrote down. Um, when I was just like, because people were online and they were being like, oh, I, I can't start with how it's happened. But what? And, and I remember being like, oh my god, who fucking cares? Like it's not about that. And then I was like, oh, that's what he'll say. And I jawed it down immediately. And that was like my big, like, oh my god, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who he is. He doesn't, he, he would have said if it mattered. Like, anyway.

Well, I'll say this then and keep it brief. I mean, yeah, the grand vision mask, I think like I took verbatim. And I think for the most part, a lot of the objects, I guess I take are kind of canonical if you want to put it that way. Like, The crystallizer of dreams is a real thing. The lantern was kind of a real thing. I think I might have skewed what it does, but just because I think that adds some cool, you know, um, connections to things that you might have known. Yeah, like if you played call up with you, you're like, oh, I know that. That's kind of fun. I think I know I've jazzed a bunch of them up and changed my own.

Yes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But in terms of like, and I think in terms of, it was a really nice kind of answer to that. And what I'm basically trying to say or what came out right says is like, the way you think you know these gods, the way you think you know any of this in this world is no longer the case. Shame to go off this like great old one is just fucking gone, like dead. Doesn't even exist in all these other worlds. And you only know about it because she was deleted from this world. Me, what you think, me, no, I'm none of that anymore. I'm whatever the fuck I want to be. And when Kane's ultimate goals come across, it's going to be even more revelatory, I suppose, like it's going to be very interesting to see like what he actually wants, because I know people have theories and they're wrong. But the idea that The things you know in this world are no longer the case is really my theme. And I struggled with a way to articulate that. I think at the piano analogy, and I'm working miraculously well, I think, in my mind.

Exactly. I was really proud of that. And then the fact that he gets to actually play it was just, oh, it's like, okay, this all works out really, really well, which is the only part of intern as I wrote pre. I wrote that before I started working on the finale. I wrote Kane's explanation of who he is. Just so I could kind of work backwards from that point. But I knew this was where we were going to end, which is very different from any other season. every other season well definitely season one and three season two little bit more idea I was like okay I know I want to end with the king confrontation so that's why also it ends on a nice clean 20 but like season one ends on randomly 12 and then season fucking three ends on like I don't know 28 28 just like random because those seasons were like a little less here's where I want to end with it But yeah, you know, the gods in this world, in the level in our very much skewed altered different versions. Because if we can extrapolate that cane is this version of Narlithotep, one where, excuse me, but when he says, you know, I killed them.

Yeah, he says I killed them executed by this one. This guy, you know, that just you can then kind of assume, okay, well, what other truths are about the gods? I mean, we already know King and Yellow fractured. We know that the real King and Yellow was yanked from the dream lands and thrown into Arthur, which to me is a really fun piece that I think is alluded to. I don't know if I cut it or let it up in the episode, but The dreamlands have been a lawless waste since the beginning of season three, which is kind of cool. There's no king and yellow there. What does that look like? What the fuck is going on there? And so much of this is about not giving the whole picture to. I love people trying to extrapolate and figure out things like that too. And in a large part, don't want to give all the answers. I just want to give enough to make people feel satisfied and, you know, nip a few things in the bud, who was breathing in that wall and Addison, okay, cool, checkmarked. Done, that's closed. You know, what would have happened if we had shot any done, checkmarked clothes. You know, I like I wanted, I want certain things completely wrapped up, who escaped the, the pits, you know, and because that's satisfying for them, too. But there's still a lot of the, of the mythos that I do want to keep kind of vague. So that people can make their own assumptions or guesses, or I get the opportunity to surprise people.

Yeah, I would agree with that, honestly. I was really, I think there's like three big I did not see this coming and I think the first is the butcher working for them. I think the second is John being projected is probably the biggest one. And then I think the memory wipe fake out is the big one for Intermezzo, which I was really proud about.

Yeah, that was fun. I really liked that. So good. Thank you.

I think I do enough like theorizing and jotting little ideas down to really, at the end of the day when it came to the finale, it was about assembling them. I would say my biggest failure with the finale was just how long it was, honestly. I didn't, it's for a multiple reasons. Number one, I wanted to end on chapter 200. I think around chapter 187 I was like I could I can nail this out and you know, but but that came Ironically, as a result of lengthening the farm episodes, purely because, well, my daughter was born around that time and I was like, okay, well, we need to slow down a little bit. But also, I was like, you know, I'm enjoying the scene. I'm enjoying Oscar, I'm enjoying what could happen. I'm enjoying the revelation of that little arc, which is who scratches, which is really fun. But it just kind of enjoyed myself more. But I think what it did was it made me realize, oh, I want the, I want season four to end on part 40 and now I need to make it really lengthy. And, you know, an hour and 40 minutes, I recognize, I hope the negativity will be like, oh, God, that's long. But I'm happy about it. I'll just find the time rather than be like, oh, too long. No, thank you. Because I do recognize that people's time is precious. That's why public release splits up into two pieces.

I hope so. I mean, well, though, definitely will be complaints, but yeah, you're probably right. I probably won't hear much of them. But yeah, I mean, I would say that was my only quote unquote failure because I mean, I, I, ideally, well, also it just run myself ragged, you know, like every week I was making a work 23 minute episodes. It's just like 11, 12 hour work day, more or less in just, you know, I might just be staring at a page sometimes. But or helping out with the baby and doing other fun things to kind of supplement my time, but for the most part, it was just it was a lot. And I'm officially going to say for anybody listening to this and I'll probably make a post season five chapter one of season five, whatever, to a one, it's going to be nice and short. Chapter two, three, four. The first, listen, the first few parts are gonna be back in like the 30 to 40 minute range. Do not expect anything because I need to reset the pace. It needs to drop right back down.

Oh, and also five minute chapters. Well, exactly. I mean, it's just, it's just, it's not, it's never what I intended to do anyway. You know, it was never really meant to be an over-hour show. It's always meant to be like a 35 to 45 minute show.

Happily it's so interesting I think and actually I would love to talk about this because I think a lot of people misunderstand what like votes mean when you we think of voting we think like I mean if you're American I suppose I'm not by the way, but if you're American you think oh this candidate or this candidate and that's gonna like change the course of your entire four year whatever you don't I mean But like, when you look at the votes, I would urge people to look at the roots of a tree, maybe more than this or that, meaning that some choices, yeah, they're influential. But the reason the butcher came to the end was because of a choice in maybe the train episode, or maybe a choice in the Daniel episode. These aren't choices that decide the fate of a character. Their choices that lead to a path that alter the entire direction of where you where the show ends up. Now season five, whether episode 39, no had nothing to do with Arthur, Marie was dead and Oscar was standing next to Arthur in the rain, still would have said, okay, we're going to go to the order tomorrow. Like that always would have been the case. Bye. who would have been helping him in the order, whether the butcher would have been alive or dead, whether Larsen would have been missing a fucking arm or not, like there's so many little things that would have changed the entire course of the show that get built upon and built upon and built upon. Because I only write for the next chapter. I mean, if I were to sit down now and write out what I think season five will be versus what it will be in a year from now, it'll be so different. And again, even at the beginning, as I talked about what season 4 in my mind was going to be, which was like, I wanted I wanted more cop, Robert detective type stuff. I wanted more like, I mean, fucking even that hotel. And I never intended Arthur to, you know, meet Oscar at all, really. That was a distillation. I never intended for scratch to be introduced the way that scratch was going to be. That I mean, that's a long winded answer that will come at season six, but there's elements there that like totally were just based on the choices and kind of what happened and subplots were written. in the throws of season four because of choices that people made and and you know came back. So do your choices matter in the way that you know it will one choice will dictate the entire outcome of the show. No, if I write something entirely higherly and I'm talking entirely different based on what you've chosen. I mean, that would just be so jarring chaos. It would be chaos and it would be ugly. It would sound ugly. You know, like if if John and Arthur were like Well, you know, should we do this? And then Arthur is like, no, there's no way we can do that. Or you know, it would just sound really gross. It wouldn't be a good show. But do the choices accumulate and like make a like an arc in the direction of where you're heading a thousand percent. And I could point to almost every single choice in the show. I would say even bread and cheese. ended up being not only a huge discussion in the like, you know, the poll community, but it's still a like famous decision vote. Could you really argue that that was meaningless if it had an impact on the community? Because isn't that the end of the day the votes are meant to be a reflection of the community?

Oh, man. I mean, there was a few flips that were really satisfied.

That one was really interesting. I remember that one. That was with the butcher and all that, right? But the flip that I remember being really fun or satisfying was, uh, what are the other flips? There was one that I really liked. That one was fine.

Oh, the ring versus knock. That was really fun. Yeah. That was really interesting because I had like kind of a flow chart of like, you know, what would happen? Because because I planted the seed earlier, you know, he he wrote a letter, the knock at the door or whatever. I came or which I went with now, but I think you guys chose the wrong one, didn't you?

Uh, nothing. We wouldn't know. And there's no way. And that's the thing, two people are like, what's the right answer? It's like, well, A, sometimes there's no right answer. B, sometimes there's no way to know the right answer.

Yeah. Only a few people that are like, No, I stand by because it's true for this or whatever, but especially in the last one when Arthur was go willingly. I think that might have been the one that I think that was the most satisfying one because I got to weigh in. and talk about who Larson is. And I think that's yeah, that's where I created, that's the one I had most fun with because because I think Larson hasn't gotten scream time in a while, but also I think a lot of people didn't really understand what I was leaving breadcrumbs for in terms of who Larson is. You know, like, here's a guy who's eating an apple across from Arthur at the table. Like what kind of person do you think that is? Is this a guy that's asking you a question You go willingly, like seriously, or do you think after coming from another room where you had a scene play it out that he's trying to reflect a part of your life that he learned about because of the voice in his head. You know what I mean? Like he's doing it to be a kind of a fuck, you know, and to me it was really It was really satisfying to kind of just ask questions and be like, who, what kind of person do you think Larson is? And I think the question I asked was, why do you think Larson is asking this? And a lot of people were like, well, because he needs or through to be willing to go through the thing. And I was like, why, how? Where does that come from? Why do you think that? You know, it was really nice to like not coach, but like kind of walk people through their own fears. Yeah. Well, and I mean, I have said this many times it's so often and there's a famous Sir Arthur Conan Doyle quote that I that's been in my mind because I love playing murder mystery escape games and stuff like that where it's like, you know, don't let your theories lead to assumptions or rather it's you're making the facts suit the theories rather the theory suit the facts exactly and I think that happens sometimes knowingly and obviously and and sometimes to the benefit because, you know, like I said, there's no right answer. Sometimes you make a fact guess and you jump on it and it ends up being beneficial for the story and for the characters. But that was definitely one where I was like, I don't think everyone's really understanding what kind of person Larsen is based on evidence, you know?

Who said are there needs to be alive to use the machine.

Well, and I think that's a big thing that sets the show apart that I think and when I end going to your question when when you talked about people who get the game and people who don't get the game, that's exactly it. That's the game to me. Like for me, people might say I'm a creator and Yeah, I am, but I like the way you phrase it almost where like there are times when I almost want to be more of a DM and be like, yeah, but what do you think this guy's doing? Because that's the fucking fun. Like this is all just a big game and it's big show and it's just about, you know, a path of these characters and there's no good or bad. There's no right or wrong. And to me, when you understand, and I think another question I was asking to is like, Okay, so you want to go willingly. How do you think no would react? Had he's in Johnwood react? What the people around you right now? What are they going to say? You know, and people will be like, well, no, might be okay with it. What do you though? Look at look at this guy who's like spit in the eye of yellow for 10 fucking years. You think he's going to be like, yeah, if I go go willingly, you know, like, like understand where you're at and to a degree as a GM, I often or a DM often, I'm like that too, where it's like, you know, I've played a bunch of convention games and convention games are always the best for bringing new people into the game and one of the Staples of Calvcathulu is treat the game real like treat it like you know like you don't have a hundred hit points like in D&D you have like six and if you pull a gun out in Calvcathulu at a cop you'll get shot or if you you know fight a monster you get shot and there's a there's a moment of like you know treat treat the scenario that you're in real and I think more than anything not to say one way or the other but the willingly but like imagining your standing and Arthur shoes and you are that character. You know, I think the people who have the most success in enjoying the story are the ones who take the votes as a story rather than as a, well, I wouldn't do that or you know what I mean? And I think Danny's mom is the one who does it.

I remember thinking that I was like, man, I want to start season four off with like a real big espionage vibe, which I tried to echo in the finale a little bit too. Like I wanted like a mission possible almost type like vibe, not with the like the gymnastics of it, but like yeah, running across the top of the train and, you know, shit with that.

I mean, yeah, the train obviously like I wanted to get this vibe set and it all also changed a big part of New York because the final part final choice of that was like jump off the train, which I had a whole kind of mapped out idea of like cool like Arthur's kind of back in the wild a little bit and There's like a bit of a cat and mouse in the woods. And, you know, that's a big reason why the butcher doesn't show up until Daniel's house because of that choice. So again, talking about choices, like there's a big one that changed a lot of the show.

Yeah. The nightmare. Scratch is very interesting, really proud of how that came out. I knew I wanted a, in fact, Scratch sort of came up because the butcher was in the back burner because of that choice again. And like I wanted a little bit more of an antagonist, but Scratch, as we know from the episode, Scratch was quote unquote banished. There's kind of something more there. And I don't want to give too much away. But I will say that scratch is not over.

Yeah, the woman who's been mentioned seen and now interacted with.

Do you know who that is? Did you figure out the difference? Yeah. Yeah. And we know who Lilith is, right? Yeah. And I kind of hint at it in terms of as well, which is really interesting. Yes.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's no secret to say that that is also seed planting for like a bit of a bit of a bigger part. I think that season five thing too, which will be really fun. Now, there's another seed I planted in Intermezzo, too, which I'm really interested. I don't think people are going to pick it up until the beginning of season five. Interesting. Actually, I won't say it. I won't say it. Okay, you have to cut this. You have to cut this. But I'm going to say there's going to be a cool thing about. So, and I've teased this in the discord. I don't like a month ago where I was like,

Yeah. So yeah, yeah, but don't we cut that cut back on that.

Very, very different. Yeah. And you know, it's funny because we were like, well, if anger doesn't talk, it's been like two days. You know, it's like, it's not been that long. So

That was really fun. That honestly, I would say the nightmare probably since the first episode of the Dreamlands, the nightmare felt the most freeing to write. And it came the easiest, and it came the quickest, and it came, it was hands down the most fun. Because when you write to show this long, it's all cumulative. It's all about what's come before, you know, Arthur reaches a new bag, what's been in there before, what's in his bag. The nightmare gave me permission to just go wild. I'm really excited for season five because I get to do that again. I mean, I'll tell you the amount of times I researched New York shit, you know, like a lot of people and this is this is a fun little inside. A lot of people talked about the Egyptology references when they went to the Freemasons. That's all in the Freemasons building. I watched videos of tours of the Freemasons buildings. They're all connected. So a lot of people were like, oh, this is so interesting. And I was like, no, in fact, that wall of photos that he finds aldric ward on, that's a wall of photos in the New York offices. to agree to the floor that they go to is the floor of the executive offices of the Freemasons building in New York, which you can tour. So obviously I had to backdate it and I tried to find photos and stuff like that, but one of the biggest taxing things about New York in general is you can match the route that Arthur takes around New York. You can see he walks from Grand Central to the Tudor Tower hotel. He takes a taxi up to Maurice Place, takes a taxi to Daniel's place. The whole Daniel butcher, like Chase scene, I mapped out basically where they are. The Lennox hospital is like within running distance from that. You're in a mean, it's all very interesting. And the road that the farm is on, bolder road, I would love the listeners to Google, bolder road New York. Because I think a lot of people I don't I didn't see one person reference that I don't think anyone caught that

It's the worst. Hacking. Because you know what it is? It feels like, and I've said this to Joe many times the season, I will spend two, three hours researching or whatever, and I'll come to her and be like, I've done nothing this morning. And she's like, well, you've been doing this. I'm like, but you don't understand. When you're when you're working without producing something, it feels like you've wasted time. I know it's not true, but God, the amount of time I felt like I've wasted which

For like a throwaway line. Oh my God. And I will say season five is not going to have that. And I'm again, I'm going to say the talk about season five a little bit, but I want to be clear at this point for those who now know where she survives takes place. This is not going to be the medieval England that you scholars know about. This is got a very specific vibe to it that this is not You know, there's no Berlin Gutries. This is a leery equivalent. This is going to be this is. Yeah, and I'm excited to talk about that in the second.

Yeah, I want to talk, I want to tease the vibes. I want to tease the intentions. I want to tease the feelings. So yes, season five is going to be so much more like season two in the vibes of solitary in the vibes of fantastical. If you've seen movies like The Last Unicorn or like, you know, like an era of fantastical medieval England where it's very dark, you know, flame lit, very grotesque, but very monster infused. have this personal, very fun, not real, but this fun kind of belief or idea that all of these dragons and goblins and trolls existed at one point many, many, many, hundreds of years ago. And because there's no, you know, video cameras or even really solid written record from, you know, 700 years ago, that these legends just kind of faded away because all of these creatures either died off or did whatever. But imagining a time where these things are more potent, more real and more exciting and manipulative and dangerous is the realm that we're playing with. If I were to envision these in five, it would be a dark green, mossy rain covered summer night. with growling in the distance and rumbling underfoot and the darkness of the dark ages is prevalent and even though it's slightly after their ages. But yeah, I want people to enjoy the ride of season five. I've talked to many times about losing people because I think Season two, I was fearful of losing people, but it was clear that the setting was fantasy in terms of what's been written. I think season five could lose a lot of people because the way I'm going to be delving into season five medieval era is going to be more fantastical than I think a lot of people might enjoy. You know, I'm not talking about dragons or anything like that, but I just think army of darkness. Like if you've seen army of darkness, that's the tone and the vibe I'm going for where it's like, yeah, you know, these castles and keeps and, you know, sword fighting, but also like skeletons and fucking demons and, you know, pit creatures and that kind of thing. You know, if you're if you're into enjoying a show and having a good fucking time. I think season five is going to go hog wild in that shit. We enjoyed the more grounded, you know, plotting out New York map route. That's not going to be season five's vibe as much. So I think that's where I could lose people. But in my mind, that's even fun as hell. Well, so, and I've said this to you and I said this to multiple people. I like I've envisioned This has always been the path for season five. And people who have seen the call of goofy little games know that this has been the path. You know, even Liz has been like, well, this is where it's going to go. Because said it, you know, if you watch the games, it's not a secret. It's always been the plan to kind of head there. This is where the blackstone is. This is what Kane wants. But I think the way that that world is going to come across is going to be really fucking fun and scary. a lot of scary a lot of horror to like a lot more horror in this season I think yes well because horror in my mind is is a large part isolation you know it's like being alone and and it's so tough to have that horror in New York and again I I succeed at the vibes I wanted to do for season four I have no regrets I am so proud of season four more than any other season And I think I'll be more proud of season five than I have in many other season because I want to play with different stuff now. I want to play with, you know, and to a degree like divisor came out during season four because I needed more horror in my stream. And yeah, I definitely, I definitely foresee a lot of blood in season five.

Well, it's funny too, because I was like, man, there's so many characters in the season four. And there's going to be less than season five for many reasons, but one of them also being, it's like, there's only that many versions of English characters I can play.

I think the biggest question Arthur is going to face is what to do with his like with John you know what I mean like here's here's the entity. that he's time and time again come back to okay like like I'm gonna I'll help you I hope you and this latest betrayal is such a another you know it's like another fucking throw it on the fire of Oh my god, and I think Arthur is really going to struggle with the idea of like, how do I, how do I fix something this broken to a degree? Um, and I think the biggest question John is going to face is who am I? What do I really want out of this? And I think this is season five in my mind is going to be, especially at the beginning because I don't want to tease it the whole season, but leaving season four the way we have with John's character. I think season five beginning is going to be a lot of John being like, what do I want? Like, who am I? I need to I need to figure it out now. And if it goes according to how I'm hoping, season five will be a solidification of John's character before, you know, everything blows up in season six.

Season 5, chapter 201, we'll start February 21st. No stopping, no breaks.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. To me, it'll be one of those things that, and you kind of set it, you know, people binge it anyway. Like, I'm happy to keep going. I love the commitment and the pressure and I thrive on it at times. and realistically, in five years when people re-list in the show, there won't be any waiting anyway. So what's the difference, you know what I mean?

Oh, definitely check a divisor. If you haven't heard that already, that's going to be one of the things I'm most proud of the last year. It's a seven part horror sci-fi little series about the horrors of AI. I really like it. It's about the length of a movie. So you can enjoy it in one long sitting. Also, Dyshame. I also produce acting. and edit a actual play RPG show with my wife and our friends called Dice Shame. And I'm extremely proud of it. It's a lot of fun. I play a very different character than Arthur or John or any of the characters you see on the level. And it has well over 200 episodes at this point. and it is a great story to get attached to. If you just love following Zany characters along their journey for characters who are tasked with basically saving the world from the uprising of giants who do exist in the world and these four characters are more or less given this quest from God. And along the way, they, you know, defeat giants and make friends and some of them even pass away. So definitely check that out. Disha in podcast.com. You can check it out. Like I said, I edit and do sound effects on it every week. So it's, it's my other big show. And then, of course, anything new that comes out would be a patron exclusive first. So if you're not already a patron, consider joining that.

It's amazing. Give it a read now. I highly recommend it.

Yeah, I'll see you on this girl. Thanks everyone for listening. Have a great one.

I mean, you can cut this, but you can cut this from the show, but he's just hitting him, but cut that. Yep. Yep. I'll clap.

Definitely some of the things he says echo my feelings at times. Not the mean stuff, probably.

Never the mean stuff. No. Definitely like a voice for how he feels about Larson, like, as Larson as me being like, you fucking work. You fucking nothing. Hold on a second.

She's just walking by a lesson. That time.