Transcript for Jealousy: Glennon & Abby Share It All

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With free and gentle, mess meets its match. That's all right. So download the Pampers Club app today and earn Pampers Cash redeem your Pampers Cash for exclusive Pampers coupon savings and rewards. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Hi. Hi. It's just you and me babe today. I know. It's just you and me. You and me babe. What we're going to talk about today is something that we have talked about. Oh, low so many times by ourselves.

You're probably just jealous because it's kind of like old fashioned Victorian term, which is more in your lane because you are a Victorian on the inside.

Oh, here we are. Okay. So this episode y'all is about jealousy. Okay. And we thought we had one question. from a pod squadter about jealousy. And we thought we would just answer 10 minutes and move on. We ended up talking about the depths of the jealousy and our relationship and what it means and what it doesn't. And we've come to many close to many situations during this conversation. And it's been so helpful.

Yeah, and it feels like Pods what I'd listen, you tell us what you think. But for me, what it came down to is trust not just of each other, but of ourselves. And what I realized at the end of this conversation is I'm really starting to trust the pod squad. I think that that has as always boundaries helps trust. And I think I have gotten us a little bit off of social media and so the pods want deals safe and real to me because I know that most people don't hate listen to podcasts but they do hate follow so I don't know it's kind of a beautiful thing I realized oh my god I'm saying things that I don't normally say out loud and I think it's because I actually trust this community But that's also because I have self trust enough to be like actually the social media thing is no good for me.

You all just listen. Tell us what you think. We love you. I don't know where this next one's going to go. But I'm very curious to hear what you have to say. Abby, let's hear from Sarah. Okay.

Oh no. Sarah, if you could see us, we're processing our emotions in real time right now. Abby is squirming. We are stretching. We are moving. We are sweating.

So you're gonna tell the truth, but you have, okay, but that's interesting. So you have an ideal self. Yeah. And you have an actual self. Yeah. I don't even know where to start with this. We have jealousy issues. I feel like they're getting less and less. Yeah. As we get what? Older, we trust each other more. I don't know what.

Okay, yeah, so here's the deal Sarah. I have never. I'm just going to give you my trauma first as an excuse for my jealousy because then I will also. Okay, I've been like a kind of serial monogamous, my whole life, you too. But whenever I've been in a monogamous relationship, I have been the only monogamous one. It's been very mono. Okay, it's just me.

I have never, ever since high school. And I've probably been in about like seven or six or seven long-term relationships, right? I mean, long-term, meaning some of them are high school. Like I was a tenth grade and, right?

No. I think it's been about five. Okay. Okay. Great. Five.

You've got when I was in, okay, well, I want to start early then when I was in eighth grade, I was very in love with someone named Adam. Okay. He cheated on me.

Who knows? It felt like a very serious relationship. My, I don't been a week. Okay, okay, then I dated a person named Shai changed their names. I'm going to start with the first letter that's right and then change it. Sorry, Adam, I already did you. There was a Joe. Okay. And I was a software. Okay. That was like a year long. Okay. Two years. Leave me.

And then there was will call him bill.

Right. And then there was. will crack in everyone's crack. Yes, you're right. It's for. I knew it.

The point is that I thought in all of those relationships that I was in a exclusive relationship and it wasn't just my feeling like that had been discussed and not a one of them ended up being exclusive. All of them were cheating on me in one way or another. No. I'm not here. to judge them or myself at this moment because I have done lots of judging and privately over the last whatever. It's interesting. I do see that there's one common denominator in all of this relationships and it's me. So I assume there's something there. But I present all this to say that when I entered the relationship with Abby, I was absolutely certain, even though I don't think I would have known this, but my body was certain that I was going to be cheated on again. So I was preparing myself because I knew I couldn't control the cheating because I never had been able to be before, but I felt like I could control my vulnerability to it. Like I could control whether I was stunned and wiped out again by it. Now, that's not true. I can't really control that, but that's what I told myself. So the way that I protected myself was to just be ready and often to search for evidence of it, because it's better to be the detective that discovers it than to have a detective knock on your door and say, we have discovered this thing about your life. Is that true? That's what you felt. That was my old.

I've told this story before, but I mean, it got to the point where Abby, I think he walked out of the shower once and I was going through your phone. And this is very early on. Like there were no signs that anything I just was protecting myself. And I used to be so crazy, jealous. Oh my God. I think something that is interesting about the jealousy between the two of us is that I am and still still. I get jealous when you have any apparent connection to someone who, quote, looks like me. A parent connection? A parent, like something that I can see.

No, a parent, like, clear. A clear, a clear connection. Like, even if it's just you like them or your friends with them or they like you or whatever, I feel alarmed when it feels like that person is in my family. You tell the people, let's just get me out of the hot seat and move to you.

Yeah, that's interesting. Sometimes you've been right with the person actually eventually did cross the line that we were going to come to with, but oftentimes that wasn't true at all.

Yeah, do you remember who that was?

Right. I remember that moment and then you just looked at me like I had just stabbed you in that bubble.

Oh, wait a minute. Okay. So is it when I allude to something like that? Is it that you suddenly feel like my attraction to you is less individual? Like, oh, no, she just has a sexuality that is this type. Yeah. And that's not what we are telling ourselves. We are telling ourselves like early days when I said onto a freaking magazine reporter when they were asking me, what are you? What are you? And I said, I'm Abby sexual. Like, I can't first of all believe that I said that. That's so cheesy. But you like that vibe.

Okay, so let's say you watch a show. your truest honest self here pretend this chair will shock you if it's not totally true okay so you're watching a show and there's someone who is beautiful you don't think that person is beautiful

So you notice the beauty, but it's like noticing a beautiful flower.

Something you can appreciate the beauty, but there's no desire attached to it.

Yeah. I always think it's so interesting when we're hanging out with a couple and they are freely expressing their appreciation for other people's beauty or in the relationship. And we are so, I feel that that is a very, whenever I am around it, I feel like that is a very involved way to be.

I think you probably read my energy in that moment and I did stiffen a little bit, but the reason I stiffened is because, and this is not correct. Okay. Don't be like this, people. The kids were there and in my head I was doing mental gymnastics about I don't like over them. Yeah, for them. I just don't like beauty standards confirmed by us in front of the kids. I don't know how to explain it. I just don't like When we define what is beautiful and it matches what culture has defined as beautiful and then we say that to the kids. I don't know how to explain that in a way, but that's what was going on in my body in that moment.

Really? Yep. You're right. It's like, if you see like someone who's like, you know, six foot two blonde, big boobs, whatever. Like, whoever's like the standard. I don't know, whatever's the standard. I don't know. Like, the standard of like some kind of CGI. Okay, whatever. I don't know. Hey, I'm very soon.

Because yeah, we just don't like whatever we have. Yeah. But my point is, I feel like there's something that Yaba talks about that always makes me like talk to Yaba by like unfurl inside. Like I'm like, oh, that's true. I like when beauty is something that we, because beauty should be something that's so idiosyncratic. You know, it's like something inside of us. see something that lights us up from the inside. And so beauty is so personal. And so I love it when people notice something that's beautiful to them that it feels personal. It doesn't feel like, oh, yeah, the culture has taught her that that's beautiful. So she says that's beautiful. I don't know. Do you know how?

It's one time we were in Hawaii. And we were on a family vacation. And we had just gotten done with a day on the beach. And we were all together as a family. And we stopped by this like a pokey. And on the side of the road. And we were just all sitting there. We were all like salty and and tish looked at me across or maybe was Emma. I don't remember across the table and said, Mom, you're beautiful. And I felt it. I felt like she looked at me and she saw something. that made her unfurl from the inside that was true to her. I could accept that, like I felt it. When I am dolled up, hair bleached, and by the way, I don't do this anymore, but the decades I spent with my anorexic self, hair bleached, lashes on, spanked on, walking out into the world, and somebody would say to me, you're so pretty. I never, ever felt that as personal to me. What I felt like they were saying is they were looking at me and they were thinking, wow, you did a good job matching yourself to the cultural expectation in our white supremacist world of beauty standards. You must have worked your ass off for that. Good job looking outside yourself, gathering a bunch of data about what this world decides it has worth, and painstakingly molding yourself to that model. Like when people said, you're so pretty at that time, I heard you're a good soldier. You're a good soldier. It had nothing to do with beauty. Like true beauty. How are you able about it?

It's true. Abby is obsessed with Viori. I am a little bit too. Do you think you have a favorite item?

Sleep enough. You wear them to work out and you wear them out to dinner. That is true.

And you wear them under suits and you wear them to bed.

What is jealousy? Yeah. What is jealousy?

Yes. I get that. I think that's right. Because I do also, I do believe that I own you and I don't want any NLs. Yeah. Thinking that they can even rent you.

Yeah.

I couldn't say I trust Glennon because it was too terrifying.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. You said, I trust you like it was a threat.

It's like with narrow eyes, I trust you.

It's so terrifying though, because it's like, True trust is like here, I give you the power to annihilate me.

Yeah, and you just have to do it over and over again, because if you don't do it, even if you've been cheated on in every relationship of your life like me, not this one. Right. If you don't give over the power of annihilation, you're already annihilated. That's exactly right.

I just wanted to say also that Sarah called out how tricky yeah friendships. This is in queer relationships, but It should be this tricky in all relationships. It's just that in heterosexual relationships is easier to be like, that's a guy. So no, you can't hang out. And that's a girl. So no, you can't. It's a fake power control.

It's a fake safety mechanism. It's like the manifestation of the bullshit Christian rule. Like I don't hang out with women for more than 10 minutes, which is really just a complete denial of everyone's full humanity.

Yes. But for now, it's a beautiful thing that we are protecting each other's trauma.

If somebody was attacked by a tiger, And then they went gotten to a marriage. It would be okay for the other partner to be like, I know it's weird to never go to the zoo. But I'm going to choose that because it's your particular trauma.

Yeah, because it's like the should of it all can really fuck you up. Like we should be able to do this. We should be able to do this. Well, the thing will always remain that we are human beings and should help us not at all. I also think that there is a way that jealousy has actually if you're a jealous person in some ways, it has actually nothing to do with your relationship. And it's stuff that you can help in your own individual work because for me, letting go of trying to control other people's brains is part of this. And what I mean by that is, okay, I'm just going to give a total random example, but let's say you're at an event and there's a bunch of them women just like me. Yes, okay. I'm annoyed even talking about it. Just like, God, dying over you. Yeah. You know, what I'm saying to the pod squad is because I love you and I'm going to be vulnerable with you is I know Abby's not going to cheat on me with those women. I just don't even want them thinking that they have a chance that they have In that they might, if they tried hard enough, I don't want them to even think it. That is my jealousy. Now listen to how insane that is. What I would like to do to solve my jealousy is to just control millions of women's brains. If I could just control your brain.

So what I'm trying to connect that with is my work has largely been to understand and accept that I cannot control other people's thinking. That's right. I cannot control other people's narratives. I am not responsible for changing or controlling the narrative of anyone except for my own. So I have to allow everyone to think whatever they want. That is insanity to me. I have to let everyone think whatever they want, whatever they want, imagine whatever they want.

I love when you get jealous because it makes me feel less crazy because I'm just the jealous one.

Oh, it's because I tell you the truth when I feel vulnerable. Yeah. That's not fair for you. Not to know.

What else do you need to see? I mean, Pod Squad, if you have not heard that story before, when she caught me with her phone in my hand, going through her texts, she looked at me and said, oh, honey, what else do you need? Do you want my email password? What else do you need? Which? know what to say about that.

It's jealousy, like a deferred threat, like what I do think is interesting is, while I am working on trusting you, which I do now, what I trust most and forever more is myself. And I think one of the things an invalidity does. is it's not just about breaking trust with the other person. It's not just that you go around not trusting other people your whole life. What's so fucked up about it is that it makes you not trust yourself. Yeah, you're all gaslighting your own self because you have been allowing yourself to gaslight yourself or I have had relationships where I kind of suspected the other person was cheating, but then they told me so many times and then I talked myself out of it over and over again. I have had that experience. I have had the experience where I was completely and totally blindsided by it. And I didn't have any suspicion. The cruelty of it is that it makes you think that you can't trust yourself to know other people.

Yes.

And so you end up keeping people so far away, not just because you don't trust other people, but because you don't trust yourself. You think I have to keep you so far away because I don't even trust that if I start feeling suspicious, I'll handle my business. That's exactly right. I will be totally annihilated. That's exactly right. I will get to the point of ruin again. Yeah. But I think there's an end both here. I think that my work has been, okay, there's enough evidence here with you. that is not just outside, but inside my body that I can trust you. And one of the reasons that I can trust you and let you close is that I know that I have my own back, that the second I start to feel something is off. I am going to honor that. It's not going to be a slippery slope anymore. I am going to not gaslight myself if I'm in a relationship where somebody It trays me or my trust in whatever way. I'm going to get my ass out, right? So it's like sometimes the only people who can actually trust other people are the people who deeply trust themselves. It's a very big act of power to trust another person and let them in because it implies I've got my own back here. I can let you in because I can get you the fuck out anytime I want to.

Oh, God, I hope not. I hope not. Everybody is. I hope there's more healthy versions of it out there.

I think we have also when in doubt we have prioritized each other's comfort over what is normal.

And that is right. That is what we might be moving towards like in a lot of ways in our life. I think that's kind of how we've built trust. We've had situations where you tell me, I don't like that. I don't know why. I don't like that blossoming friendship. And I have, well, forever I didn't trust my own gaydar or whatever about this because no one has worse gaydar than me. I didn't know I was gay. I didn't know my kids were gay. I never knew anyone's gay.

But it's so confusing. I've had situations where I have looked at that blossoming friendship or that whatever and thought, oh, I really like this person. I really like this friendship. I think this would be a good thing for me. And I have thought really carefully about, and truthfully, I don't want to hurt that other person's feelings. Yeah. I'm thinking that person needs me or I don't know, maybe I like being needed in that way. I'm not sure. It's usually somebody who needs something from me.

That is how I always start my friendship.

It's like intimacy skipping.

I think that it is simpler for me and easier and more controllable and safer has been over time. I'm always like the EMT front. Like I am the person who you should come to when you have a crisis. Yeah. I will get in it with you. It won't even make sense. Yeah. I will get in it with you in a way your best friend won't. Yes. I will show up for you. You're the best. Who the hell is that person coming in like a tornado helping me with my shit, but then you must know that you will never hear from me again.

Yeah, I hear that. And I think it's not totally healthy. It's like I don't know how to slowly and deliberately and insanely build friendship. I don't know how to do that. It feels stressful to me.

I understand why that would cause, is it, is that jealousy on your part? Because you're also trying to control that other person's narrative. You don't want them to think, totally, that I love them.

Okay, are you worried about me getting wrapped up in that and also feeling little seeds growing without other person?

I think we're both trying to control other people's brains. Totally.

Because that's the moment you know it's trauma. Yeah. And you just say, okay.

Yeah, but that's also because you're not trying to control me. That is something that some couples could use against each other is just constantly say it's trauma.

But I think that's too simplifying it. So if I were like, look. value our marriage, don't go to those places where all those fem women are falling all over you. Value our marriage. That's oversimplifying it because no, what you're doing is your work out in the world. And for me, I think it's not about the friendship. Clearly, I'm never going to talk to this person after I get to help them through the crisis. It's for me, it's about myself worth in the world. It's like, oh, this is how I know how to do this. even if it's not healthy, which I, as I'm hearing myself talk, I don't think it's the most healthy form of service or connection, maybe. But it is what I know. It's like how I know how to be important. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Okay. What we can say, Sarah. Sarah, if your point was to call in and be more confused after you heard the response than you were. You're welcome. You are welcome. But what I do think is true. is that jealousy we put it in this teeny little category like it's just one thing we have to worry about. And the reason why it's complicated is because it's about everything. It's not one little thing. It's about trust. It's about self trust. It's about love. It's about communication. It's about connection. Yeah. It's about being annihilated. It's about friendship. It's everything.

Well, if it's true that people fall in love with the person swept into their life and helped them with the crisis and left, there are so many people in love with me out there.

Oh, same.

Yeah, it's like people think that what will help people out of their trauma to more normalcy is if they just keep telling them that's not how they should be.

Like you could have when I was looking through the more logical response would have been, why do you need that? What are you doing? And instead for you to take the approach of what else do you need? You didn't think why the hell did you need that you loser? You thought, oh, it's so sad, but also precious, that you need that. And what else can I give you that you need? Yeah. It will help build trust, which is quite a beautiful thing.

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By popular demand, net suite has extended its one-of-a-kind flexible financing program for a few more weeks. head to netsweet.com slash hard things. Netsweet.com slash hard things that's netsweet.com slash hard things. I also think there's just letting the world love your person is okay. Like when I think about what little moments that I get jealous like when someone comes up to us and they this is and annoying of me, but like when someone comes up to us and I can see that they're not seeing me at all. Yeah. And they're only seeing you and their eyes are locked in and they are like, I love you. I need a picture. I need a whatever. And I'm like, oh my God, I think what's happening in my body is I'm like, they're not seeing us as a unit. I don't even exist. They're just seeing Abby.

Right. And I think I'm getting closer to the point where I'm like, oh my god, that's so beautiful. Yeah. But there's always a part of me that feels like I'm going to disappear.

Oh my god, am I visible? Like do I exist?

Oh my god, let us end with this gem yesterday at Target. I went in for something candy for the kids. So $380 later. Oh my gosh, it was 190. Whatever, we just

I cannot look. I and the cash register upset by how much we spend there.

And why? Because you thought because he was recognizing you.

And then I walk back up because I'm trying to miss the total. So I make myself busy and then I come back after the total is done. It's not good. It's a sleeping beauty approach to finances. I know that. Okay. It's bad. I know. I'm working on it. Maybe I'm thinking about working on it. Yeah, there you go. And that man looks at me that looks back at Abby. And he says, no, no, hold on.

Back to Glennon as if who's this right, but then he says, Oh, is that your is that your and what he was going to say, which was very apparent to both of us, what he meant was, is that your child, this man at target. thought, and I did have overalls, like I did look, I don't know, anyway, he thought, well, you're smiling with Abby's child.

Is that your, is that your, and he did not mean wife to say, no, it was very long.

Yeah, and like there was no malice. There was no, for sure he loved his mind couldn't compute that we would be married. So it went to child, but he was a sweet heart.

I know. Pod squad, if you knew, what's the first thing I did? Before we were out of target, I was texting the family chain saying, you all. The target me and just thought I was Abby's child. Craig was laughing so hard. He's like, what did you say? I said, I love you. That is what I said to that man. I love you. And then I said if I had a nickel for every time somebody thought I was Abby's child. I would have five cents. Oh, you guys. Okay. Let's end this very strange but episode that I loved, babe. You did? This conversation. Yeah. Let's hear from a pod squatter of the week.

Can you tell this story, though? So that everyone who didn't listen to that episode.

Of course. But when you think about, first of all, the beauty of Abby revisiting those memories and realizing that her dad was there because he knew that she would come towards him like a magnet. Yeah. Energetically is so beautiful. Like it makes me get the chills when I think about your dad. Actually, when I think about you remembering that, Abby, and like seeing your dad's little smile and realizing what was behind it is so beautiful. But it's also the most beautiful metaphor for parenting.

There are parents who just stand on the sideline and scream at their children to run towards the goal. Just tell them what to do. And there are parents who move and go where they want their kids to go. Because our kids, silently, will go where we are. And so the parenting approach of stopping, telling them what to do all the time. And instead just being who we want them to be, just calmly going where we want them to go, knowing that they will end up where we are and who we are and what we model.

Yeah, and when somebody's just screaming at them, and suddenly they're not discovering their inner voice. No, they're scared of yours.

I see you. How about good idea or good hustle? Those are the two I alternate because we're good at it already. I don't say effort that feels too sportsy for me, but I feel like someone's always hustling. So if you yell good hustle could always be true. Could be any team could be to anybody. It's just your general support of what is happening on the sports field. Yeah. Good idea. I'm not even actually sure what that means, but I think it's a nice thing to yell.

But then do you think that's not a thing we should yell at them because then is that just show that whatever they tried didn't work depends on your kid. Right.

So are you seeing their thinking? It's like when I was teaching when I was teaching and somebody would do a long long division process. I never was like, this is right or wrong.

Because you don't always end up with the right thing. But if you're showing your work and I can see that you get the process. Yeah. That you just mixed up a little number at the end. That's right. I can see your thinking that you are truly starting to understand division. That's right. You should get almost all the points.

Yes, because it means good soccer thinking I can see your developing.

Yeah. Do that again. We would rather you keep trying that and not get a goal and stop trying that.

I say bravo to both at least. You into this. I mean, hot squad, I had so much fun just doing this with you today. I missed a story, but I feel like it was great.

It makes me feel like we're making progress.

Maybe sister can listen to this and just place it. That's it. That's check us. I'm feeling's checking us. There's always fact checking us. Pod squad. We love you. We want to hear your thoughts about jealousy. Actually, I think it's a fascinating topic. I could talk about it all day. I did too. If you all have thoughts after this, which I know you always do call them in. If you can keep your voicemails less than a minute just because it becomes impossible for us to use. And again, at 747, 205307, 747 205307. I really, really love you.

It's like somebody handing you, they're very, very, very delicate, fragile, hard, and you're like, oh, God.

Yeah, it starts at the K. Yeah, and they put the golden it.

Well, I feel like we are each others gold filling. We can't make it so it was never broken. That's right. But we can just keep, oh my god, our producers are Sloran and Allison are right away. Can Sugi, can Sugi, can Sugi is the art of Japanese like repair of pottery. But the way they repair it is that they don't try to minimize the cracks like most repairing of things does. They accentuate the cracks with gold filling, which is counterintuitive because we think you're supposed to hide the cracks and things. This illuminates the cracks and things making the cracks gold and shiny and the actual most beautiful part of the pot, meaning all of our trauma, when loved well. can actually become even more beautiful than had we never been broken.

Which could be taken out of context in so many ways. And with that, we love you, Pod Squad. See you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things Show page on Apple Podcasts. Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with the friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things, is created and hosted by Glenn and Doyle, Abby Wannbach, and Amanda Doyle, in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, the show is produced by Lauren Lagroso, Ellison Shot, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. I give you Tish Melton and Brande Carlisle.